On 7/10/2015 8:01 pm, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
On 7 October 2015 at 19:50, Bruce Kellett <bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
<mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au>> wrote:
On 7/10/2015 6:26 pm, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
On 7 October 2015 at 16:59, Bruce Kellett
<bhkell...@optusnet.com.au <mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au>> wrote:
On 7/10/2015 3:58 pm, Jason Resch wrote:
On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 10:37 PM, Bruce Kellett
<bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
<mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au>> wrote:
Is a particular mind a natural type? Or is it only the
generic 'mind' that is a natural type? Maybe the particular
mind is only a token of the generic type 'mind', not a type
in its own right. You beg the question in your analysis.
You postulate some unknown difference between your distant
doppelgangers that makes them not the same (despite being
defined as the same (physically, organizationally,
materially, computationally)). Stathis and I merely reject
your theory that there is some unknown difference that makes
a difference.
I am merely objecting to your tendency to create your
preferred results by definition. You *define* the distant
persons to be identical, without providing any way in which
that claim could ever be checked. It is not that I say that
they are different, I say that you have no basis for your
claim that they are identical. And without being able to
establish the existence of identical brain configurations,
and identical conscious states, then your theory is only a
matter of your definitions. And you cannot determine what is
real by definition.
You seem to believe that verification of similarity is needed in
order for the statement that similar things are similar to have
meaning,
The statement that similar things are similar is a tautology. I am
asking for some justification of any claim that two given things
are similar. Basically, to make such a claim, one has to compare
the objects. Such comparisons are impossible in principle for many
of the cases under discussion here.
That similar things are similar is a tautology, and no verification is
needed to see that it is true. You can argue that no copies exist
anywhere in the multiverse, but you can't argue that IF copies exist
THEN they would not be similar/ would not really exist/ would lack
meaning.
Again, you are misrepresenting my position. If it is a copy, according
to the discussed notion of a copy, then it is similar by construction.
But this does not entail that any such copies exist.
which is a strange way to think. Even the logical positivists
allowed the validity of a priori statements.
I am not sure that I know what you are trying to say here.
Positivism is based on the notion that theoretical statements only
make sense in terms of the underlying observational statements.
Positivism is, therefore, often characterized by ruling out
metaphysics, since that cannot normally be reduced to
observational statements. Logical positivism took this further and
attempted to argue that all talk of unobservables is merely
metaphorical, and not truly scientific. So I don't understand your
statement about a priori statements.
Metaphysics is ruled out by logical positivism, but the claim that
similar things are similar is an a priori statement, and does not
require empirical verification.
No-one claimed that it did need empirical verification. It simply
suffers from the defect of all tautologies -- it does not convey any
real information about any state of affairs.
I have given good reason to believe that there are, in fact,
no exact copies of us, or our world, in the whole multiverse.
No one has been able to offer even the outline of a proof
that there are, so I am content to say that there are none.
Prove me wrong if you want to disagree.
You have speculated that the universe is non-uniform, and that
you believe we are not one of the structures that repeats
infinitely. There is no good reason to believe these things, and
I suspect most cosmologists believe in the Copernican principle,
even though it has not been proven.
The Copernician, or Cosmological, principle is really about the
observed universe. We have one data point when we seek to talk
about other universes, so any such talk is inherently highly
speculative. Any speculative conclusions are, inevitably, very
sensitive to the input assumptions. I am doing no more than
pointing out that the assumptions you wish to make are without
independent evidence, so you should not be anything like as
dogmatic about the conclusions you wish to draw.
As I said, the Copernican principle is not proved, but most
astronomers probably believe it is true. If it is true and the
universe is infinite, then infinite copies (or doppelgangers) of you
and your environment down to any level of detail you specify exist. At
the very least, this is not a ridiculous notion.
Neither is the contrary. So I have reservations about theories that are
based on such speculations, and depend on such a raft of unsupported
assumptions.
Bruce
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