On 4/25/2017 10:19 AM, David Nyman wrote:
On 25 Apr 2017 5:15 a.m., "Brent Meeker" <meeke...@verizon.net
<mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:
On 4/24/2017 10:02 AM, David Nyman wrote:
On 24 Apr 2017 7:32 a.m., "Brent Meeker" <meeke...@verizon.net
<mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:
I don't think there's any question that non-physical things
exist, like chess and insurance and computations. The
question was whether the assumption that computations can
instantiate a mind, i.e. the possibility of a conscious
robot, entails a contradiction of something. The "something"
having to do with physics, is part of what I would like
eulicidated. Bruno says it reverses the relationship of
physics and psychology...but that's more of a polemic slogan
than entailment of a contradiction.
I don't think so. Here's the way I see it. Let's say we accept as
a hypothesis a computational ontology. Since this requires no
more than the natural numbers with + and * this amounts to an
ontology of arithmetic. Platonism be damned, our interest at this
point is merely in seeing where the hypothesis can take us. So,
computationalism leads us to the extension of the UD, which in
turn gives us the digital machine, aka the fully fungible
universal computational device. The reversal then is between role
of the "psychology" of that universal machine and the subset of
the trace of the UD assumed to implement physics.
The UD doesn't have a "psychology". Bruno talks about the
"beliefs" of a universal theorem prover in arithmetic...but that's
not a UD. And was is "the trace of the UD". To talk of taking a
"subset of the trace" sounds to me like handing waving: We'll make
a machine that writes all possible sentences and then there's a
subset that describes the world.
The former is now required to play the role of filter or selector
on behalf of the latter; it's what distinguishes​ it from the
much more general computational background. Of course that
"filtration", by assumption, essentially equates to the extremely
high probability of that very subset being required to support
its own self-selection.
Are you saying this "subset of the trace" must have a high
probability of existing, or it has, by some measure, a high
probability relative to other stuff not in the trace. If the
latter, and if the measure can be defined, that would be an
interesting result; but when I've asked about this in the past
Bruno has just said it's a hoped for result.
I understand that Bruno wants to take thoughts as fundamental and
the wants to identify thoughts with provable or computable
propositions in arithmetic. He thinks that the modality of
"provable" is somehow a good model of "believes" or "thinks". But
even if that were true (I don't think it is) it fails to account
for the physical world which one thinks about and acts in.
IOW it's selection by observation, with the part of "universal
point of view" falling to the suitably programmed digital
machine. It from bit really, but without the prior commitment to
physics as the unexplained (aka primitive) assumption. OK?
You don't seem to have even mentioned a contradiction.
As far as the contradiction is concerned, I think you've found it for
yourself. You've said many times that the number 2 has no independent
existence but must depend on there being 2 things. IOW, you take the
view that numbers are inferred only secondarily from objects which,
broadly, is the intuitionist position on mathematics. Fine, if so for
numbers, then equally so for computation. If computation is at root an
inference from the relations between objects, and at the same time one
holds that consciousness supervenes on those inferred relations, then
one has reasoned oneself around in a circle, and not a virtuous one at
that. Is it really intelligible to say that your mind supervenes on a
set of secondary relations that are themselves nothing other than a
product of its own powers of inference?
But on that account they are not "nothing other than" - the are
/*instantiated*/ computational relations.
Brent
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