On 31 May 2017, at 09:15, Bruce Kellett wrote:

On 31/05/2017 4:40 pm, Pierz wrote:
On Wednesday, May 31, 2017 at 3:28:18 PM UTC+10, Brent wrote:
Sorry.  Something funny with my verizon account.

Brent

On 5/30/2017 8:09 PM, Pierz Newton-John wrote:
> Brent, are you replying from a mobile? I’m still receiving your replies, as others are, on my private email. That’s what happens to me when I try to reply using my iPhone. The "reply to all" button is missing. I’ll reply to your remarks on the list if you post it there...
>
>
>> On 31 May 2017, at 1:05 pm, Brent Meeker <meek...@verizon.net> wrote:
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>> On 5/30/2017 7:30 PM, Pierz wrote:
>>> Thanks for these clarifications Bruce. I find your explanations to be very lucid and helpful - they also confirm my own understanding. IIRC, you weren't a particular fan of MWI when I last conversed with you on this list. I wonder if you'd care to comment on my original argument on this thread - which has of course now been swamped by the usual brawls. Does not a single history + the physical insignificance of the notion of a current moment mean that there is also only a single possible future? >> I don't see how that follows. In the usual model of forking in the future direction every current moment has a single history, but multiple futures.

Multiple futures = MWI, surely.

Not necessarily. If you insist on Schrödinger determinism, then yes, by reification of the wave function. But if the wave function is only epistemological, then there is only one probabilistic future.

How could an epistemological wave interfere all by itself? It seems simpler to say that the wave is real, but that the local, one branch, perception is epistemological.




When I say a single history, I mean that from the Big Bang forward, the universe only followed one branch.

And that can lead into the future, only one probabilistic future.

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>>> And if the future is predetermined in this way, isn't this a serious issue for single universe models of QM? How can the outcome of quantum events be both inevitable and random? >> Having a single future isn't the same as being determined. A single future in which situation A is sometimes followed by B and sometimes by C is still random.

It depends on perspective. It's true that from 1p, it looks random. But from 3p, it is static and always the same, and in this sense determined.

Not true, the 3p view of the future is still just a single probabilistic world line. It is only the bird view, from outside space and time, that gives the appearance that there are multiply existing futures. Neither we from the 1p perspective, or from outside ourselves in the 3p perspective, can we ever see any of the other branches predicted by MWI.

Yes, like in WM-duplication. The guy in Helsinki can predict that his first person future will be unique, even if he knows that in the "bird" picture, that outside the teleportation/duplication boxes, there will be two versions of him.




The question is, what determined (from the 3p view) that the universe followed that particular path and not any of the others?

Why do you reject out of hand that the universe might be probabilistic? It is possible 'nothing' determined which path from the possibilities was actually followed. All that is known are the probabilities for each path. We do not know that the other paths are followed, either 1p or 3p.

In QM, we do have evidences that many path are taken all together. if only the two slits.


Bruno



My assumption here is that "now" does not exist from the 3p POV and therefore the physical structure (whether it branches or not) of the past and the future is the same.

That can certainly be the case, whether there are existing alternative branches or not.

Bruce

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