> On 18 Apr 2019, at 19:56, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > <everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > > On 4/18/2019 3:17 AM, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List wrote: >> What does "self model" even mean ? Notice that any material attempt to >> implement "self model" leads to infinite regress. > > No. A "model" is not a complete description, it's a representation of some > specific aspects.
Well, indeed. But that is the sense of “model” when used in physics. In logic, the model is the reality that we are doing the theory about. We should avoid the term “model” and talk only on “theory” and reality”, or we will risk to bring confusion. The theory is the (usually incomplete) representation, like a painting. The model/reality is what is supposed to being represented. For example; the theory of arithmetic is 0 ≠ s(x) s(x) = s(y) -> x = y x = 0 v Ey(x = s(y)) x+0 = x x+s(y) = s(x+y) x*0=0 x*s(y)=(x*y)+x But the arithmetical reality is the highly non computable and non axiomatisable mathematical structure involving the infinite set N, with 0, +, * and s admitting the standard interpretation we are familiar with. > Your "self-reference" cannot refer to everything about yourself...which > according to you is a stream of consciousness. > Yes. > Brent > >> Because let's say that a machine has the parts A B C. To have a "self model" >> would mean to have another part (A B C) which would contain the "self >> model". But this would be an extra part of the "self" which would be needed >> to be included in the "self model" in order to actually have a "self model", >> so you would need another part (A B C (A B C)). But then again you would >> need to include this part as well in the "self model". So you will get to >> infinite regress. I missed this (from Cosmin). Of course that is Driesch “proofs” that Descartes will never solve its self-reproduction problem, but that has been solved by the second theorem recursion of Kleene (or just Gödel self-referential sentence construction). Self-reference here is just obtained by the syntactical recursion: If Dx gives x’x’, then D’D’ gives ‘D’D’’. See my paper “Amoeba, Planaria and Dreaming machine” for more on this. I have used the recursion theorem to program a “planaria”. A program that you can cut in pieces, and each pieces regenerate the whole program, with its original functionality back. Bruno >> Therefore, you need a special kind of entity to obtained the desired effect >> without getting into infinite regress. And that's precisely why the >> self-reference that I'm talking about in the book is unformalizable. And as >> you say, being unformalizable, allows for bootstrapping consciousness into >> existence. You cannot simulate self-reference just by playing around with >> atoms. Self-reference just is. It just is the source of the entire >> existence. Is not up to anyone to simulate the source of existence. You can >> never obtain the properties of consciousness (meaning, purpose, free will, >> memory, intelligence, learning, acting, etc.) just by playing around with a >> bunch of atoms. All these properties of consciousness are having their >> source in the unformalizable self-reference. >> >> On Thursday, 18 April 2019 04:00:31 UTC+3, Russell Standish wrote: >> each consciousness bootstraps its own >> meaning from self-reference. Unless the mars rover has a self model in >> its code (and I don't think it was constructed that way), then I would >> extremely doubt it has any sort of consciousness. >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >> <mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com >> <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list >> <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > <mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com > <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
