Goes double from me.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Hanna
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 9:59 AM
To: Exchange Discussions
Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
Dude, STFU.
--steve
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:20 PM
> To: Exchange Discussions
> Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
>
>
> Titles are priceless.
>
> Ethics are about avoiding real and *perceived* conflicts of interest.
> If you work in an industry and accept gifts from vendors in that
> industry, it is always going to at least be a perceived conflict of
> interest. Whether it actually is or not is absolutely irrelevant. If
> you own your own business and provide consulting on how to build
> bridges, then no, an MVP title would not be a real or perceived
> conflict of interest.
> If you are in
> IT, it is.
>
>
> > Kindly define "significant gifts such as large dollar items
> and titles".
> > Where, exactly is your threshold? Let's get down to
> specifics, Greg.
> >
> > How is it a conflict of interest when it is my job to
> provide consulting
> > services surrounding Microsoft products? It is not my job,
> for example, to
> > steer people away from Windows to Linux.
> >
> > Why can one not serve two masters, particularly if the two masters'
> > directions are complementary? Still, your entire point is
> flawed since
> > neither Microsoft nor the MVP program is my master, and
> neither ask anything
> > of me, period. (I take that back--they do ask one thing,
> that we behave in
> > the forums. If you claim that's a conflict of interest, it
> will further
> > confirm my belief that you've lost it.) The MVP award is a
> "thank you", if
> > you will, for past service. Not once has anyone directed
> me to do a single
> > thing.
> >
> > Again, for 11,000,001st time, you have failed to adequately
> explain how
> > there is any conflict of interest between my being an MVP
> and what my
> > employer asks me to do. Microsoft gives MVPs a modest
> non-monetary award
> > for their work doing peer support. It's right there,
> disclosed in the MVP
> > website, as I told you before. Personally, I provide this
> peer support
> > service on my own personal time, not my employer's, and of
> my own free will.
> > My employer pays me to perform consulting on Microsoft
> Exchange, Windows and
> > various other complementary technologies to its customers.
> Most other MVPs
> > are either consultants or Exchange administrators. We
> answer technical
> > questions and try to help people with their technical
> problems. We do not
> > sell Microsoft products. Whatever we say we believe.
> Where is the conflict
> > of interest, pray tell?
> >
> > I cannot recall ever having been encouraged to evangelize
> Microsoft's
> > products because I am an MVP. Personally, I don't hesitate
> to express my
> > opinions about Exchange even if the good folks at Microsoft
> disagree with
> > me. Many others who have been MVPs longer that I are even
> more forthcoming.
> > Please demonstrate exactly what the conflict of interest is and its
> > insidious result, Mr. Deckler. How, exactly, has the MVP
> program caused
> > such an ethical dilemma that you must rant and rave over
> it? Let's get
> > specific, though, because your 50,000-foot view is rather
> unconvincing.
> >
> > For the record, my employer knows I am an MVP, knows that I
> receive a modest
> > gift of appreciation, and has no problem with this. So my
> employer, which
> > happens to be a very ethical company, has no problem with
> this arrangement.
> > Why should you?
> >
> > It is mighty judgmental of you to presume that any person
> is unprofessional
> > solely because he does not adhere to your personal
> standards of ethics.
> > Your opinion implies that because you define there to be a
> conflict of
> > interest, no reasonable person can decide for himself to
> the contrary. That
> > is, you see yourself as the sole arbiter of professional
> ethics in this
> > field. Clearly you believe that MVPs are unprofessional
> because they do not
> > adhere to your standards of ethics, even if those standards
> are undefined
> > and based solely upon your own simplistic idea of
> standards, your own
> > ignorance, your logical fallacies, and your personal
> prejudices. As long as
> > you espouse such ridiculous ideas, I will call you on them.
> >
> > You've been spewing this bile for eight years and you know
> you're right
> > because, to paraphrase, nobody has proven you wrong. The
> real problem is
> > that you haven't convinced anyone other than yourself that
> you're right.
> > You are the one with the opinions. But wait--you say you
> deal in facts. In
> > an eariler post, you state that it should be obvious that
> everything you say
> > is your opinion. Which is it, fact or opinion? Well, I
> will argue that you
> > don't deal in facts, you're all about opinion, so don't go
> claiming it's all
> > about "known facts". There isn't a single fact in your
> diatribe except for
> > those that say or imply, "I believe...". I do agree that
> it's a fact that
> > you believe some ridiculous point.
> >
> > People do read what you say in your posts, as opposed to
> reading what they
> > read. Everyone recognizes that you are speaking with your
> own voice. It's
> > obvious to all that you really believe what you say and have a firm
> > conviction. That's how they know for certain that you're a
> bag of gas.
> >
> > As to this thread being a waste of bytes, it has been your choice to
> > continue it. It seems hypocritical that you post a
> complaint that everyone
> > else is wasting their time and bandwidth, when you yourself
> are guilty of
> > just that by posting such messages.
> >
> > Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP
> > Freelance E-Mail Philosopher
> > Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Greg Deckler
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 6:44 PM
> > To: Exchange Discussions
> > Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
> >
> > I will state this again for the 11 millionth and 1 time
> now. Accepting
> > direct gifts from third parties, especially significant
> gifts such as large
> > dollar items and titles, presents a real or perceived
> conflict of interest
> > between an IT professional's client (either the customer or
> company that he
> > or she works for) and that third party.
> >
> > This is the most very basic definition of conflict of
> interest. One cannot
> > serve two masters. If you have been given something, and
> ESPECIALLY if it is
> > something significant that can be taken away, then it
> presents a conflict of
> > interest. This, from an ethical, perspective is wrong.
> >
> > This is the logic and the conclusion. It is as simple as
> that. It is not
> > only what I believe but WHY I believe it. If someone can
> prove to me that
> > this argument is illogical or flawed in some way, then I
> would believe
> > something else. I am not close-minded or stubborn. Thus
> far, nobody has
> > proven this argument to be flawed in any way. A lot of
> personal attacks, I
> > have been called a wife beater, a liar and someone who
> starves children, but
> > no one has refuted this most basic argument. I have never
> wavered from this
> > argument, this has been the argument since the beginning
> that this all
> > started. This is why companies tell their employees that
> they must send back
> > gifts in excess of a certain dollar amount. This is BASIC ETHICS.
> >
> > Regardless of whether MCSE is unethical or whatever crazy
> argument you want
> > to throw at it, this is basic ethics people. If you want to
> change my mind,
> > then prove the above argument false. Simple as that.
> >
> > Now, I don't bring this stuff up. All it causes is this
> kind of craziness.
> > Other people bring this stuff up. Exactly why is a mystery
> to me. Look at
> > the subject of this message thread for Christ's sake. Are
> you kidding me?
> > And it is not like I even threw in one of my whimsical
> Microsoft barbs. If
> > someone is going to bring this stuff up, I am always,
> ALWAYS going to stick
> > to this perspective and explain things the way I see them.
> Nobody has proven
> > this logic wrong in 8 years. But, hey, I'm willing to think
> that someone
> > might. There may be a flaw in there somewhere, that I do not see.
> >
> > And all this nonsense about "tone" and stating things as
> "my opinion" is all
> > crap, a waste of bytes and besides the point. People read
> what they want to
> > read in my posts, plain and simple. What is straight talk
> to one person is
> > rude to another. What is polite to one is rambling,
> annoying and pointless
> > to another. There are way too many people in this world to
> try to please so
> > I speak in my own voice. It is a matter of fact voice that
> sticks to known
> > facts and logic. If you are offended by my posts, well,
> there is not much I
> > can do. I am not going to worry over every word and
> sentence for perfect
> > structure and politeness. I simply do not have the time.
> >
> > > First of all, from a grammatical point-of-view, you only
> need to state
> > > that it is your opinion at the beginning of a paragraph
> or passage
> > > because it is fundamentally understood that follows the
> first phrase
> > > or sentence further backs up your opinion.
> > >
> > > It is my opinion that you are more worried about reveling in your
> > > moral and symantec righteousness than achieving the
> mental clarity to
> > > realize that your 1200 word marathon responses make you
> look like a
> > > total prat. But that is just my opinion.
> > >
> > > Disagreement is a necessary part of life and the human
> condition. If
> > > we all got along, we'd all think the same way and life
> would get very
> > > dull. You can disagree with someone (even with Ed)
> without saying they
> > are wrong.
> > > This is the difference between stating a fact vs.
> opinion. By saying
> > > that someone is wrong, you are implying that you are
> correct and your
> > > reasons are based upon fact or accepted truth.
> > >
> > > Allrightythen! I guess this means that we aren't due to
> bring this
> > > topic up until June. Thanks for the comic relief, Greg!
> > >
> > > Eric Fretz
> > >
> > > L-3 Communications
> > > ComCept Division
> > > 2800 Discovery Blvd.
> > > Rockwall, TX 75032
> > > tel: 972.772.7501
> > > fax: 972.772.7510
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 12:50 PM
> > > To: Exchange Discussions
> > > Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5
> > >
> > >
> > > In my opinion, there are those with the opinion that
> stating anything
> > > as a fact and not an opinion is abrasive and rude. In my
> opinion, this
> > > opinion is absurd because it is fundamentally understood
> that anything
> > > that comes out of anyone's mouth is simply an opinion and
> not a fact.
> > > In my opinion, there may be some people with the opinion
> that people
> > > should not go around stating their opinions. But, in my opinion,
> > > everyone has opinions and it gets rather monotonous and
> boring to keep
> > > stating "in my opinion" all the time when, in my opinion,
> it should be
> > understood that everything is an opinion.
> > >
> > > In my opinion, people have opinions about lots of things
> that they
> > > consider facts. In my opinion, there are many that hold
> the opinion
> > > that the earth is round. But, in my opinion, this is
> simply an opinion
> > > as, in my opinion, there are others that hold the opinion
> that the
> > > earth is flat. In my opinion, this all depends on your
> opinion of the
> > > words "earth", "round" and "flat". In my opinion, if, in
> your opinion,
> > > the word "round" refers to a 2-dimensional circular
> object, then, in
> > > my opinion, your opinion would be that the earth is not
> round since,
> > > in my opinion, your opinion would be that the earth would
> be a sphere,
> > > and not round. Of couse, in my opinion, if your opinion
> was that a
> > > sphere is perfectly symmetrical such that all points on
> its surface
> > > are equal distance from its center, then, in my opinion,
> your opinion
> > > about the earth being a sphere might be wrong since, in
> my opinion,
> > > there are those that hold the opinion that the earth is
> not a perfect
> > > sphere but is actually a bit elliptical in shape. In
> addition, in my
> > > opinion, there are elevation variations on the surface of
> the earth as
> > > well which would mean that, in my opinion, the earth does
> not meet the
> > > definition of a sphere if your opinion is that a sphere
> means that all
> > points on the surface of a 3-d object are equal distance
> from its center.
> > >
> > > Now, of course, in my opinion, this is all just my
> opinion. But, in my
> > > opinion, the bigger concern here is that, in your
> opinion, are you
> > > happy now?
> > >
> > > > I was not arguing with you about the symantics between fact &
> > > > opinion, just rather pointing out that you tend to assert your
> > > > opinions as fact. That is a very abrasive personality
> trait and
> > > > probably explains why the discussion list has reacted
> to you the way
> > that they have.
> > > >
> > > > Eric Fretz
> > > >
> > > > L-3 Communications
> > > > ComCept Division
> > > > 2800 Discovery Blvd.
> > > > Rockwall, TX 75032
> > > > tel: 972.772.7501
> > > > fax: 972.772.7510
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
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