You are the only person who ever expressed any perceived conflict of interest. I am not going to modify my behavior to conform to your standards.
Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP Freelance E-Mail Philosopher Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 9:20 AM To: Exchange Discussions Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 Titles are priceless. Ethics are about avoiding real and *perceived* conflicts of interest. If you work in an industry and accept gifts from vendors in that industry, it is always going to at least be a perceived conflict of interest. Whether it actually is or not is absolutely irrelevant. If you own your own business and provide consulting on how to build bridges, then no, an MVP title would not be a real or perceived conflict of interest. If you are in IT, it is. > Kindly define "significant gifts such as large dollar items and titles". > Where, exactly is your threshold? Let's get down to specifics, Greg. > > How is it a conflict of interest when it is my job to provide > consulting services surrounding Microsoft products? It is not my job, > for example, to steer people away from Windows to Linux. > > Why can one not serve two masters, particularly if the two masters' > directions are complementary? Still, your entire point is flawed > since neither Microsoft nor the MVP program is my master, and neither > ask anything of me, period. (I take that back--they do ask one thing, > that we behave in the forums. If you claim that's a conflict of > interest, it will further confirm my belief that you've lost it.) The > MVP award is a "thank you", if you will, for past service. Not once > has anyone directed me to do a single thing. > > Again, for 11,000,001st time, you have failed to adequately explain > how there is any conflict of interest between my being an MVP and what > my employer asks me to do. Microsoft gives MVPs a modest non-monetary > award for their work doing peer support. It's right there, disclosed > in the MVP website, as I told you before. Personally, I provide this > peer support service on my own personal time, not my employer's, and of my own free will. > My employer pays me to perform consulting on Microsoft Exchange, > Windows and various other complementary technologies to its customers. > Most other MVPs are either consultants or Exchange administrators. We > answer technical questions and try to help people with their technical > problems. We do not sell Microsoft products. Whatever we say we > believe. Where is the conflict of interest, pray tell? > > I cannot recall ever having been encouraged to evangelize Microsoft's > products because I am an MVP. Personally, I don't hesitate to express > my opinions about Exchange even if the good folks at Microsoft > disagree with me. Many others who have been MVPs longer that I are even more forthcoming. > Please demonstrate exactly what the conflict of interest is and its > insidious result, Mr. Deckler. How, exactly, has the MVP program > caused such an ethical dilemma that you must rant and rave over it? > Let's get specific, though, because your 50,000-foot view is rather unconvincing. > > For the record, my employer knows I am an MVP, knows that I receive a > modest gift of appreciation, and has no problem with this. So my > employer, which happens to be a very ethical company, has no problem with this arrangement. > Why should you? > > It is mighty judgmental of you to presume that any person is > unprofessional solely because he does not adhere to your personal standards of ethics. > Your opinion implies that because you define there to be a conflict of > interest, no reasonable person can decide for himself to the contrary. > That is, you see yourself as the sole arbiter of professional ethics > in this field. Clearly you believe that MVPs are unprofessional > because they do not adhere to your standards of ethics, even if those > standards are undefined and based solely upon your own simplistic idea > of standards, your own ignorance, your logical fallacies, and your > personal prejudices. As long as you espouse such ridiculous ideas, I will call you on them. > > You've been spewing this bile for eight years and you know you're > right because, to paraphrase, nobody has proven you wrong. The real > problem is that you haven't convinced anyone other than yourself that you're right. > You are the one with the opinions. But wait--you say you deal in > facts. In an eariler post, you state that it should be obvious that > everything you say is your opinion. Which is it, fact or opinion? > Well, I will argue that you don't deal in facts, you're all about > opinion, so don't go claiming it's all about "known facts". There > isn't a single fact in your diatribe except for those that say or > imply, "I believe...". I do agree that it's a fact that you believe some ridiculous point. > > People do read what you say in your posts, as opposed to reading what > they read. Everyone recognizes that you are speaking with your own > voice. It's obvious to all that you really believe what you say and > have a firm conviction. That's how they know for certain that you're a bag of gas. > > As to this thread being a waste of bytes, it has been your choice to > continue it. It seems hypocritical that you post a complaint that > everyone else is wasting their time and bandwidth, when you yourself > are guilty of just that by posting such messages. > > Ed Crowley MCSE+Internet MVP > Freelance E-Mail Philosopher > Protecting the world from PSTs and Bricked Backups!T > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Deckler > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 6:44 PM > To: Exchange Discussions > Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 > > I will state this again for the 11 millionth and 1 time now. Accepting > direct gifts from third parties, especially significant gifts such as > large dollar items and titles, presents a real or perceived conflict > of interest between an IT professional's client (either the customer > or company that he or she works for) and that third party. > > This is the most very basic definition of conflict of interest. One > cannot serve two masters. If you have been given something, and > ESPECIALLY if it is something significant that can be taken away, then > it presents a conflict of interest. This, from an ethical, perspective is wrong. > > This is the logic and the conclusion. It is as simple as that. It is > not only what I believe but WHY I believe it. If someone can prove to > me that this argument is illogical or flawed in some way, then I would > believe something else. I am not close-minded or stubborn. Thus far, > nobody has proven this argument to be flawed in any way. A lot of > personal attacks, I have been called a wife beater, a liar and someone > who starves children, but no one has refuted this most basic argument. > I have never wavered from this argument, this has been the argument > since the beginning that this all started. This is why companies tell > their employees that they must send back gifts in excess of a certain dollar amount. This is BASIC ETHICS. > > Regardless of whether MCSE is unethical or whatever crazy argument you > want to throw at it, this is basic ethics people. If you want to > change my mind, then prove the above argument false. Simple as that. > > Now, I don't bring this stuff up. All it causes is this kind of craziness. > Other people bring this stuff up. Exactly why is a mystery to me. Look > at the subject of this message thread for Christ's sake. Are you kidding me? > And it is not like I even threw in one of my whimsical Microsoft > barbs. If someone is going to bring this stuff up, I am always, ALWAYS > going to stick to this perspective and explain things the way I see > them. Nobody has proven this logic wrong in 8 years. But, hey, I'm > willing to think that someone might. There may be a flaw in there somewhere, that I do not see. > > And all this nonsense about "tone" and stating things as "my opinion" > is all crap, a waste of bytes and besides the point. People read what > they want to read in my posts, plain and simple. What is straight talk > to one person is rude to another. What is polite to one is rambling, > annoying and pointless to another. There are way too many people in > this world to try to please so I speak in my own voice. It is a matter > of fact voice that sticks to known facts and logic. If you are > offended by my posts, well, there is not much I can do. I am not going > to worry over every word and sentence for perfect structure and politeness. I simply do not have the time. > > > First of all, from a grammatical point-of-view, you only need to > > state that it is your opinion at the beginning of a paragraph or > > passage because it is fundamentally understood that follows the > > first phrase or sentence further backs up your opinion. > > > > It is my opinion that you are more worried about reveling in your > > moral and symantec righteousness than achieving the mental clarity > > to realize that your 1200 word marathon responses make you look like > > a total prat. But that is just my opinion. > > > > Disagreement is a necessary part of life and the human condition. > > If we all got along, we'd all think the same way and life would get > > very dull. You can disagree with someone (even with Ed) without > > saying they > are wrong. > > This is the difference between stating a fact vs. opinion. By > > saying that someone is wrong, you are implying that you are correct > > and your reasons are based upon fact or accepted truth. > > > > Allrightythen! I guess this means that we aren't due to bring this > > topic up until June. Thanks for the comic relief, Greg! > > > > Eric Fretz > > > > L-3 Communications > > ComCept Division > > 2800 Discovery Blvd. > > Rockwall, TX 75032 > > tel: 972.772.7501 > > fax: 972.772.7510 > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 12:50 PM > > To: Exchange Discussions > > Subject: RE: Migrating from GroupWise 6.5 > > > > > > In my opinion, there are those with the opinion that stating > > anything as a fact and not an opinion is abrasive and rude. In my > > opinion, this opinion is absurd because it is fundamentally > > understood that anything that comes out of anyone's mouth is simply an opinion and not a fact. > > In my opinion, there may be some people with the opinion that people > > should not go around stating their opinions. But, in my opinion, > > everyone has opinions and it gets rather monotonous and boring to > > keep stating "in my opinion" all the time when, in my opinion, it > > should be > understood that everything is an opinion. > > > > In my opinion, people have opinions about lots of things that they > > consider facts. In my opinion, there are many that hold the opinion > > that the earth is round. But, in my opinion, this is simply an > > opinion as, in my opinion, there are others that hold the opinion > > that the earth is flat. In my opinion, this all depends on your > > opinion of the words "earth", "round" and "flat". In my opinion, if, > > in your opinion, the word "round" refers to a 2-dimensional circular > > object, then, in my opinion, your opinion would be that the earth is > > not round since, in my opinion, your opinion would be that the earth > > would be a sphere, and not round. Of couse, in my opinion, if your > > opinion was that a sphere is perfectly symmetrical such that all > > points on its surface are equal distance from its center, then, in > > my opinion, your opinion about the earth being a sphere might be > > wrong since, in my opinion, there are those that hold the opinion > > that the earth is not a perfect sphere but is actually a bit > > elliptical in shape. In addition, in my opinion, there are elevation > > variations on the surface of the earth as well which would mean > > that, in my opinion, the earth does not meet the definition of a > > sphere if your opinion is that a sphere means that all > points on the surface of a 3-d object are equal distance from its center. > > > > Now, of course, in my opinion, this is all just my opinion. But, in > > my opinion, the bigger concern here is that, in your opinion, are > > you happy now? > > > > > I was not arguing with you about the symantics between fact & > > > opinion, just rather pointing out that you tend to assert your > > > opinions as fact. That is a very abrasive personality trait and > > > probably explains why the discussion list has reacted to you the > > > way > that they have. > > > > > > Eric Fretz > > > > > > L-3 Communications > > > ComCept Division > > > 2800 Discovery Blvd. > > > Rockwall, TX 75032 > > > tel: 972.772.7501 > > > fax: 972.772.7510 > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm > > Web Interface: > > http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mo > > de > > =&lang > > =english > > To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > _________________________________________________________________ > List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm > Web Interface: > http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode > =&lang > =english > To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _________________________________________________________________ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode=&lang =english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _________________________________________________________________ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode=&lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
