--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote: > > > > > We may not be using the term "hypnosis" the same > > > way, that's true. It's the element of "suggestion" > > > that I don't find consistent with TM, just on its > > > face. > > > > I agree with this. > > I'm not sure I do. The "intro lectures" in TM > provide a great *deal* of suggestion, all *before* > the person sits down to meditate. Since the teach- > ing is canned, and no one can ever experience TM > *without* the "preprogramming" of the intro lectures, > for me the question of whether suggestion is part of > the process is an open one.
I guess we'll never "know". I was using the flimsy, but to me compelling, evidence that my own meditation has not changed in it subjective charm despite the fact that my beliefs about it have changed completely. > > > Meditation invokes a state of mind that is not > > dependent on expectation. > > But it is certainly *open* to expectation. I think that expectations shape how we feel about the state's value. > > > My recent experiences in meditation seem > > like evidence for this as well. > > Again, what would the experience of meditation be > like if we had *no* foreknowledge of what it was > "supposed" to be like, from *anyone*? It's an > open question, because as far as I can tell it's > never happened in the history of meditation. The > student *always* has some expectation of the > practice; otherwise he wouldn't be starting it. > The unanswered question is whether this expectation > affects the experiences of the meditation itself. I think there is some hope for a secular meditation to help answer some of these questions. There wont be no expectations, but it wont be so full of value judgments and beliefs about it's meaning. I am very interested in a context for meditation that doesn't include the whole tractor trailer of beliefs. This is what I am attempting to discover for myself. I enjoy the perspective of sitting quietly and not having it mean that it is cultivating anything spiritual. But the simplicity of that is a form of spirituality as I understand it, although I wouldn't choose that word. I think of it as an aspect of my human nature. Work in progress! > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <jstein@> wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > > > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <jstein@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" > > > > > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, well, if it's your POV that TM is hypnosis, > > > > > > > like I said, forget it, whether you're pitching > > > > > > > it or not. Our understandings of what TM is are > > > > > > > just too different to have a meaningful discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > As I said, I don't know enough about either state to make clear > > > > > > distinctions. I can't even clearly define hypnosis or > > > meditative > > > > > > state Judy. I was speaking about my perspective on the > > > language > > > > > > used. But if the discussion isn't working for you, no harm no > > > foul. > > > > > > > > > > Let me put it this way: If you can't *rule > > > > > out* hypnosis just as a matter of common sense, > > > > > we understand TM too differently to have a > > > > > meaningful discussion. > > > > > > > > You know Judy, I'm the one who was certified to teach meditation > > > > by MMY, and practice hypnotherapy by John Grinder in NLP. So if > > > > anyone in this discussion should be pulling the "meaningful > > > > discussion" card, it should be me. But the fact is that terms > > > > like hypnosis and meditation are terms referring to internal > > > > states with no scientific consensus about what they refer to. > > > > My opinion is not formed, yours seems to have already formed. I > > > > accept your opinion about meditation as based on your personal > > > > experience. I don't believe the same is true of your opinion of > > > > hypnosis, or that we are even using the term in the same way. > > > > > > We may not be using the term "hypnosis" the same > > > way, that's true. It's the element of "suggestion" > > > that I don't find consistent with TM, just on its > > > face. > > > > > >
