--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <jstein@> wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" <shempmcgurk@> > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <jstein@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" > > <shempmcgurk@> > > > > wrote: > > <snip> > > > > > Well, then, since they don't say what I claim they say and, > > > > > apparently, they say what YOU claim, it shouldn't be too > > > > > difficult for you to list the reasons why the Clintons are > > > > > centrist Democrats. > > > > > > > > > > I've listed my evidence. Now see if you can put all that > > > > > triangulating to good use and list your evidence, too. > > > > > > > > Jesus, Shemp. It's the *same evidence*. Any > > > > recital of Clinton's policies is going to list > > > > the same ones. What they add up to is *centrism*-- > > > > neither all conservative nor all liberal, but a > > > > mixture, so they're in the, you know, center. > > > > > > > > Nobody's saying he didn't take some relatively > > > > conservative positions, but he also took some > > > > relatively liberal positions. > > > > > > > > Have you never heard of the DLC? > > > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Leadership_Council > > > > > > > > Notice who was the first chair of the DLC. > > > > > > Just as I thought. She couldn't come up with anything. > > > > Did you read the Wikipedia article, Shemp? > > > > I think you have some fantasy that the "evidence" > > you're demanding I provide would have to be a whole > > slew of liberal things Clinton did in secret, which > > of course doesn't exist. > > > > What I'm trying to point out to you is that what > > he actually did--including all the things mentioned > > in the articles you cited--*makes him a centrist > > Democrat*, not a conservative. But in order to > > grasp that fact, you need to understand *what a > > centrist Democrat is*. > > > > That's why I referred you to the Wikipedia article > > on the DLC, which is *the* centrist organization > > for Democrats; it *defines* Democratic centrism. > > > > This is how the article begins: > > > > "The Democratic Leadership Council is a non-profit corporation > > [1] that argues that the United States Democratic Party should > > shift away from traditionally populist positions [i.e., shift > > away from the left toward the center--JS]. The DLC hails > > President Clinton as proof of the viability of third way > > politicians and as a DLC success story...." > > > > Next you should read another Wikipedia aritcle, > > this one on "third way" politics (see last sentence > > above). It begins: > > > > The Third Way, or Radical center, is a centrist political > > philosophy of governance that embraces a mix of market and > > interventionist philosophies. The Third Way rejects both > > socialism and laissez-faire approaches to economic governance, > > but chiefly stresses technological development, education, > > and competitive mechanisms to pursue economic progress and > > governmental objectives.[1] Third way philosophies have been > > described as a synthesis of capitalism and socialism by its > > proponents.[2]... > > > > A "Third Way" approach has been adopted by some social > > democrats and social liberals in many Western liberal > > democracies.[4] The most recent prominent examples being the > > Clinton Administration in the United States, the Liberal Party > > government of Canada under Jean Chretien and Paul Martin, the > > Labour Party governments of the United Kingdom under Tony Blair > > and Gordon Brown, and the Australian Labor Party under Kevin > > Rudd. > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way_(centrism) > > > > And finally, here's a definition of "third way" > > Democratic centrism from Matt Stoller of the > > very influential blog MyDD: > > > > What makes us moderates is the belief that while ideological > > movements have had some enormously positive and important impacts > > on America, we believe that there is also a critical role for > > what Arthur Schlesinger famously described as "the vital center" > > - a place that often seeks alternatives to more rigid ideological > > viewpoints and is grounded in a pragmatic spirit of problem- > > solving. Bill Clinton, one our most successful presidents, proved > > that to be true. And so did history's giants - from the Founders > > to Lincoln to FDR, America has moved forward by the combined > > efforts of passionate and boundary-stretching outside agitators > > and more practical inside advocates. And some of our nation's most > > significant policy gains have been made when our leaders have come > > together to find principled common ground. > > > > http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/6/7/125621/6667 > > > > You would do well to read the entire post. > > > > I read your "evidence." If you're not going to > > read mine, STFU. > > > > I'm familiar with the push in the past decade or so on the part of > some Democrats to go towards "the center", as you say, in order to > procure popular support.
> But what is presented in the two links you provide, Three. > Judy, is not evidence; it's opinion. > > And that's why I find that you don't often do too much thinking for > yourself. > > What I presented to you to back up my claim that Clinton was > conservative was cold, hard facts: his voting record. Well, Clinton doesn't have a "voting record," of course, never having been a member of the legislature. I think you must have meant to say "policy proposals," right? Assuming that's the case: His policy proposals are cold, hard fact. Where those proposals put him on the right-left spectrum is a *matter of opinion*. To back up the opinion that he's a centrist Democrat, I provided references to the DLC, which *defines* Democratic centrism; and to Matt Stoller, who runs a highly influential Democratic centrist blog--not to mention Bill Clinton himself, who considers himself a Democratic centrist. I also provided a link to Wikipedia's "Third Way" article--a synonym for Democratic centrism--which also considers Clinton a Democratic centrist. And it defines "third way" politics in a way that matches Bill Clinton's policy proposals very neatly indeed. > Why do you feel that you have to get the imprimatur from some big > wigs in the Democratic party or elsewhere to sanction what you > believe or don't believe? Think for yourself without having to > reach for the New York Times to see what is considered "liberal" or > whatever on a given day. I don't feel I have to get any imprimateur from anybody. What I'm showing you is that my opinion is in agreement with those within the Democratic Party who consider themselves centrists. > Most importantly, you don't need someone else to analyse someone's > voting record (You mean "policy proposals.") to come to the conclusion that that person is liberal > or conservative or centralist...that should be apparent to you on > your own. Right. It is apparent to me on my own. > And this is why I went to the trouble of listing the pieces of > legislation and activities that Clinton engaged in from which I > concluded he was conservative. That's the basis upon which to > debate the issue with me What can I say? I look at the same legislation and activities and conclude that he's a centrist. , not to look at someone else's opinion and conclude > from there that this is evidence. > > Yes, I also did the same thing to some extent by linking those three > articles but I only did that AFTER I listed the evidence; those > articles served as support for my conclusion (as well as listing > OTHER legislation and activities as evidence...particularly the > Socialist article). > > Can't you list the reasons why you feel Clinton is LESS > conservative than I claim. Why, I can think of several > that you can offer as evidence right off the top of my > head...why can't you? Well, I can, of course, but if you've already considered them and concluded that Clinton's a conservative, what difference is it going to make? S-CHIP, family leave, gun control, earned income credit, cutting back on defense, increasing minimum wage, increasing tax rates on the top 2 percent, deficit reduction, appointment of women and people of color to high positions, defense of abortion rights and affirmative action, chemical weapons convention, Kyoto treaty, appointment of Ginsberg and Breyer to the Supreme Court...etc., etc.
