--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <jstein@> > wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" <shempmcgurk@> > > > wrote: <snip> > > > > What I presented to you to back up my claim that Clinton was > > > > conservative was cold, hard facts: his voting record. > > > > > > Well, Clinton doesn't have a "voting record," of > > > course, never having been a member of the > > > legislature. I think you must have meant to say > > > "policy proposals," right? > > > > I mean his voting record vis a vis signing, as president, a > > piece of legislation as regards things such as the Welfare > > Reform and Defense of Marriage Act. For things such as the > > budget and NAFTA, I'm not 100% sure whether that is legislation, > > policy proposals, or presidential decree, but we know where he > > stands on them.
None of this is "voting record." Signing legislation isn't "voting." > > > Assuming that's the case: His policy proposals are > > > cold, hard fact. Where those proposals put him on > > > the right-left spectrum is a *matter of opinion*. > > > > > > To back up the opinion that he's a centrist Democrat, > > > I provided references to the DLC, which *defines* > > > Democratic centrism; > > > >BUT THAT'S MY POINT, JUDY. > > > >YOU ARE THE ONE WHO GETS TO DEFINE IT, NOT SOMEONE YOU READ ABOUT. > >YOU, JUDY STEIN. > > > >FORGET ABOUT BEING PART OF THE CROWD. Stop shouting, or this conversation is over. Now, listen up: You demanded *evidence*. How I define Clinton's record isn't "evidence," it's my opinion. And I've given you that as well. Stop flailing around, please. > > > and to Matt Stoller, who runs a > > > highly influential Democratic centrist blog--not to > > > mention Bill Clinton himself, who considers himself > > > a Democratic centrist. > > > >Well, he can hardly publicize himself as a right-wing or > >conservative Democrat, can he? Non sequitur. > >Actually, I remember seeing a headline on the Drudgereport in > >Clinton's last year of office in which it quoted Clinton calling > >himself a conservative but despite my trying to find it in order to > >reference it I haven't been able to. Serves you right for taking anything Drudge reports as gospel. Haven't you figured out yet that he's unreliable, *particularly* where the Clintons are concerned? > >I would define Clinton as either a conservative or a right-of- > >center Democrat...possibly a "centrist" but certainly not a > Democrat centrist. You're also confusing the record of what he accomplished with what he *wanted* to accomplish. In terms of defining Clinton's political leanings, the latter is what you should be looking at. There was a great deal he wanted to do that he wasn't able to get through the Republican Congress, including health care reform and allowing gays in the military. The Republicans blocked health care reform, and Clinton was forced to compromise on gays in the military with "Don't ask, don't tell." <snip> > > > I also provided a link to Wikipedia's "Third Way" > > > article--a synonym for Democratic centrism--which > > > also considers Clinton a Democratic centrist. And > > > it defines "third way" politics in a way that matches > > > Bill Clinton's policy proposals very neatly indeed. > > > >Well, that's THEIR opinion. I didn't ask for their opinion > >but for your's. Make up your mind. Two posts ago you were demanding *evidence*. When I gave you evidence, you demanded my opinion. And I've given you that as well. <snip> > >But it's not just me, Judy. It's really by any objective > >standard of measurement of what is conservative and what is > >liberal Oh, please. Your standard isn't the least bit objective. Plus which, you don't understand what Democratic centrism is. That's why I gave you URLs to pages that defined it. > and, by golly, as I wrote above, he's just got so many > conservative policies on his record. Much, much more > than George Bush, for example (and that goes for both > father and son!). That's so ridiculous I don't know where to start. <snip> > > > What can I say? I look at the same legislation > > > and activities and conclude that he's a centrist. > > > >Well, if that's what being a centrist is, boy, I sure would > >love to see what being a CONSERVATIVE Democrat or a right-of- > >center Democrat would be. Look it up on the Web, Shemp. <snip> > > > S-CHIP, family leave, gun control, earned income > > > credit, cutting back on defense, increasing minimum > > > wage, increasing tax rates on the top 2 percent, > > > deficit reduction, appointment of women and people > > > of color to high positions, defense of abortion > > > rights and affirmative action, chemical weapons > > > convention, Kyoto treaty, appointment of Ginsberg > > > and Breyer to the Supreme Court...etc., etc. > > > >Yes, and you'd be right that these things are liberal, although > >some of the things you list, such as deficit reduction, I consider > >conservative and not liberal. The Republicans were against it at the time, don't you remember? Also appointment of women and people of > >color to high positions is neither liberal nor conservative It was then. (if it > >was, Bush II and Reagan would win hands down over anything Clinton > >did in this area). Reagan?? Other than O'Connor, what women did he appoint? Bush II was following in Clinton's footsteps. And Kyoto was rejected by all senators, Democrat > >and Republican, except one I think. Right. He never sent it to the Senate because they passed a resolution against it. But *he* wanted it, so that counts on the liberal side. > >But with a weighted average given to all the things, the major > >things were pretty much all MAJOR things and most if not all of > >the things you list as liberal (which they are for the most part) > >are minor things. Even if that's true, which I don't grant, again, most of the *major* liberal things he wanted to do were stymied by the Republicans. That doesn't make *him* a conservative!
