Jim wrote: > > Does it look the same way to someone > > unenlightened? > > > Jim, it seems to me that what you have defined > above is that the enlightened live in a state > that is completely divorced from reality. > Those that are 'enlightened' live in a different reality than those that live in ignorance. The enlightened have an experience of 'gnosis' in that they realize the illusory aspect of reality.
They 'Know', gain 'Gnosis' of a new reality, that existence is composed of suffering, lamentation, and grief. Those who are enlightened understand that existence is not real - it is unreal in the sense of being illusory, that is, unsubtantial, having no absolute basis. > Their *perception* (in your words, "from their > enlightened perspective") is that there can be > no possible mistakes, and yet they make them > "constantly" (your word), and so do others. > In reality, the individual does not really act at all - it's just the samskaras of the individual that are completing the current cycle of illusory birth and death. Once this cycle is completed, the individual is not reborn as a illusionary soul-monad. > So, a few followup questions: > > 1. What do you perceive the value of enlight- > enment to BE if it makes you perceive this badly > and (by your own standards) incorrectly? > What you percieve, in YOUR unenlightened state, is just the illusion of mistakes. In reality, this perception is just the appearance of what you interpret to be wrong action. In reality, that is, in the enlightened state, actions are percieved to be merely the results of the gunas, which act out due to the karma accumulated in previous lives. > 2. Should anyone pay ANY attention to the enlight- > ened when they claim that there are "no mistakes?" > (It seems to me that you yourself have just said > that this perception is incorrect, and yet you > keep saying it.) > Those who are enlightened have experienced Nirvana, that is, they understand the 'Twelve-fold Chain of Causation' and the 'Four Noble Truths'. Those who have experienced this state of Nirvana are free, and immortal, in the sense that they have blown out the flame of illusion - they have 'Knowledge', or 'Gnosis', in that, they realize that there is a release from the birth and death. They know that they will not be reborn again - they will not suffer ever again because they know the reality of rebirth and all the sorrow lamentation and suffering that life entails. Buddhas do not have to come back unless they choose to do so. > 3. If the enlightened can be *this* wrong about > the issue of "Are the words and actions of the > enlightened perfect and free from mistakes," > and *admit* it, why should anyone pay any > attention to what they say about anything else? > While living we must all recognize the customary habits and morality of the society we are living in, otherwise you may find yourself commited either to a psychiatric ward to to a jail. But this is realtive to your own situation. All of the above is just standard Buddhist and Enlightenment Tradition doctrine. Why on earth you persist in arguing the materialistic POV is beyond me. Even the Rama Guy said as much!
