On Sep 18, 2009, at 3:37 PM, yifuxero wrote:
---right, but you seem to be saying that since the TC...etc. model
isn't "really" universal; it never happens. But nobody knows for
sure,...we certainly can't rely on the MUM statistics.
Well that's a separate point from what I'm saying. What I'm pointing
out is that it's common in people who've accepted the TC-CC-GC-UC
model of awakening as real, and solidified that as the way
consciousness evolves, whenever they look at other ways of awakening
(in this case different saints) they project the solidified idea--
which is being perceived consciously or unconsciously as an "absolute"
model--onto an often very different way of awakening.
At the same time, some awakeners who solidified their belief in the TC-
CC-GC-UC model will reify their awakening within the acquired cage
they've accepted as real or even absolute, often without ever
realizing it. The dead giveaway is when you understand that MMY's
terms do to a certain extent parallel actual yogic and Vedantic
awakening paths that are already very well established, but he only
describes them in part. When you realize a certain awakener is
expressing their awakening solely within what "Maharishi said", it can
become clear they're up against an acquired cage (without even
"realizing" it).
It might happen, now and then. JJ seemed to describe the complete
transition, having claimed to be in CC at one time, then later
giving lectures on GC and UC speaking from what appeared to be first
hand experience.
Now if one compares this "progressive" model with various "immediate
Enlightenment" paths; we have to first identify which Gurus/Schools
are promoting the immediate model vs progressive. Some of the
"immediates" would include....
1. Dzogchen in general and in particular your Guru Norbu Rinpoche
Relatively speaking the Dzogchen path is a sudden path, but most
Dzogchen teachers will also teach of the other aspects of the 9
darshanas generally practiced in that system at the same time, which
are more gradual paths. This is helpful since there may be certain
aspects of our on-going awakening that may be better integrated in
other ways than a sudden one.
2. Various other Gurus as mentioned by Ken Wilbur including those
who were first "immediates" such as Adi Da aka Franklin Jones - who
changed his tune after a number of years when that approach wasn't
working.
That is a very interesting case. I'm not sure what to make of Bubba.
Not my cuppa tea, although I enjoyed some of what he said and some of
his scene.
3. Ramana Maharshi - seems to have bypassed all stages at once,
according to his own account, then entering UC on his Enlightenment
day, 7-17-1896. But this type of experience may be so rare as to be
virtually unheard of.
That's not my understanding, but then I'm no expert on Ramana. It was
my understanding he had achieved considerable yogic mastery prior--as
had other later advaitins like Nisargadatta, who was a Nath.
Ramana, per what I recall, would often go into samadhi for days and
days at a time--but not progressing completely, until some friend told
him to focus on the makara, the upper "third eye".
...
Some progressives
Sri Aurobindo gives a more popular account of a progression through
GC.
Sri Ramakrishna mentions "going into Samadhi"; but later mentions
complete realization of the Self (as if he possibly spent a number
of years being engaged in various subtle experiences).
But there's a glitch here, Vaj. Taking the "immediate Enlightenment"
school, just be cause a Guru tauts that approach, who's to say taht
the beginning practitioners don't go through the TC...etc stages?
Dzogchen seems to be a conceptual model that may or may not pan out
according to the ideal model.
All I'm saying is it's foolish IMO to attach absolute, universal or
perennial qualities to any sequence of awakening and solidify it as
real and then try to project that onto other awakenings in very
different schools. It's really a rather self-centered way-of-seeing IMO.
