I think one flaw in your argument, Michael, is that you are choosing to seperate out a group of individual with whom you have had negative experiences, or negative perceptions and basing your conclusions based on that group.
I know many long term practicioners who display a completely different set of behaviors, and who were having experiences, which we think of, as enlightned, as long as 40 years ago. So, I come to different conclusions. You try to give the appearance of being logical, clear, and objective, but in reality, I think you are falling short in all those areas. Although you are generally polite, and I think you do bring up good points. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson <mjackson74@...> wrote: > > Spelling corrected, plus a little bit more: > > the hell they aren't - the energy with which Marshy created the Movement has > ALWAYS shown itself in the behavior its leaders have exhibited - no free > passes on the basis of "Oh, the technique is gooood! but the people who > have been practicing the longest just HAPPEN to be asses." > > If TM was all > these folks are claiming, it would not be possible for the numbers of > TMO leaders to behave as they do - can't you see the correlation? You > really think its an accident? > > Immersing your individual awareness into > Pure Awareness is supposed to clear, cleanse and make all aspects of the > individual one with all the Laws of Nature - if 40 years or more of > practice consistently churns out people with the behavior of the TMO > leaders, then either there is something wrong with the technique or with > the underlying premises on which the technique is based (like whether > enlightenment itself can be experienced thru TM practice) > > > It is not an accident that the TMO leaders and managers in virtually every TM facility that has ever existed have consistently shown unpleasant and nasty behavior. It may have more to do with them following the unpleasant and nasty behavior of Marshy, but those years of TM should have done something to mitigate the jackass energy and behavior - you can't speak in such supreme superlative terms about TM and then claim "Oh, it only makes you better in terms of your thinking, feeling and behavior IF you let it." > > If TM is so much better as some are claiming on the basis of its effortlessness, then if follows that the mighty benefits that are supposed to be accruing are also coming on an effortless basis. > > > If you think logically you can't have it both ways. TM is effortless and has untold effects on the basis of the simple, natural, brilliant instructions Marshy gave with the mantras, yet it doesn't have any appreciable effect on those who run the Movement. Not unless you want to take the Hagelin logic path when he has been challenged on the supposed effects of group program when he says just think how much worse it would have been if the yogic flying groups hadn't been doing program! > > By that thinking you could claim the TMO leaders and managers would have been serial killers and insane people if they had not done TM. > > > ________________________________ > From: Ann awoelflebater@... > To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 11:48 PM > Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: To card - mUrdhajyothiShi > > >  > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson wrote: > > > > It was rhetorical, actually - the man was many things, but enlightened or saint were not among those things. Enlightened men or women and saints do not leave behind the flotsam of destruction that Marshy left behind. People practicing the meditation of a saint do not turn out like Bevan, Neil, Tony, and many rajas, either. > > Oh ho, not so fast. What people do with the knowledge (or a practice) might have nothing to do with the source. Human Beings are notorious for putting their own spin on a thing. You can not hold responsible some book or some teacher for what others do with the content. Bevan et al are not necessarily the reflections of MMY or what he had to say just like children often turn out very different from their parents. Great parents can still have rotten children and horrible parents can end up with great offspring. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: John > > To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 4:10 PM > > Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: To card - mUrdhajyothiShi > > > > > > à> > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson wrote: > > > > > > How bout neither? > > > > MJ, > > > > Please, see my response to Judy on her reply to this question. Then, you can find out about my position on this matter. > > > > JR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: John > > > To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 11:22 AM > > > Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: To card - mUrdhajyothiShi > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "John" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "John" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Outside of the TMO, many saints in the Catholic Curch were > > > > > > > known to have levitated, including St. Teresa of Avila. So, > > > > > > > levitation or flying can be used as a criteria to determine > > > > > > > one's state of consciousness, specifically that of > > > > > > > enlightenment. > > > > > > > > > > > > John, this is way too simplistic and creates significant > > > > > > confusion. > > > > > > > > > > > > The saints had no *intention* of levitating; it was > > > > > > involuntary, and in many cases unwelcome--frightening and > > > > > > overwhelming. Teresa actually prayed that it wouldn't > > > > > > happen. > > > > > > > > > > > > Any devout Catholic, moreover, would be appalled at the > > > > > > idea of such performances being used as a criterion of > > > > > > spiritual development; that would be strictly against > > > > > > Church doctrine. And the saints would never want to > > > > > > attract attention to themselves in that way. > > > > > > > > > > > > Aside from the issue of whether levitation is possible, > > > > > > there really isn't any commonality between the > > > > > > significance of levitation in the Western (Catholic) > > > > > > tradition and its significance in the Eastern tradition. > > > > > > You can't use one to justify the other. > > > > > > > > > > > Judy, > > > > > > > > > > Levitation is the quick test for those who claim to be > > > > > enlightened, in particular, those who follow Osho's > > > > > techniques and philosophy. Otherwise, it may take a > > > > > very long time to prove conclusively that a person is > > > > > enlightened. Specifically, the Vatican has a very > > > > > exhaustive method for canonizing a saint. > > > > > > > > John, I have no idea what any of this has to do with what > > > > I said. I don't think you read what I wrote. > > > > > > > > The saints who levitated did not claim to be "enlightened," > > > > nor could they have passed that test. > > > > > > > > Canonization by the Vatican has nothing to do with the > > > > Eastern concept of enlightenment. This is all apples and > > > > kiwi fruit. Church sainthood and enlightenment are not > > > > at all the same thing. > > > > > > > Hey Judy, > > > > > > Please, tell us what is the difference between an enlightened person and a saint? Do you think MMY was enlightened or a saint? > > > > > > JR > > > > > >
