“The infidelity of the Gentile world, and that more especially of men of rank and learning in it, is resolved into a principle which, in my judgment, will account for the inefficacy of any argument, or any evidence whatever, viz. contempt prior to examination.” William Paley
>________________________________ > From: Ann <awoelfleba...@yahoo.com> >To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 6:40 AM >Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Michael Shermer rebuts Eben Alexander > > > > >--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "salyavin808" <fintlewoodlewix@...> >wrote: >> >> >> >> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Emily Reyn emilymae.reyn@ wrote: >> > >> > Read the book and get back to me...your research is perhaps not >> > comprehensive enough......"There are two ways to be fooled.  One is to >> > believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true." >> > - Soren Kierkegaard >> >> I've no doubt it's a wonderful story but I've read those before. >> Unless you can *unprove* that people meet relatives who are still >> alive (remember it was the experiencers who claim this) all you >> do is add to the mythos. >> >> So why would I need to read *another* book about something when >> the first objective one demonstrated that the experience wasn't >> what people thought it was? >> >> This is how you have to treat claims of the paranormal, first >> you see if there is a signal above the noise - something you >> can't account for any other way. In the NDE there isn't. But >> research is being carried out in hospitals and it's inconclusive >> to say the least. >> >> Most Out of Body Experiences are explainable by taking the timing >> of anaesthetic withdrawal into account, because people are >> paying attention to this and collating statements from care staff there is >> less chance of someone saying "but I was clinically dead >> so it *can't* be my brain". In several cases things people have spookily >> witnessed could be accounted for by what was occurring >> around them when medical procedures were taking place. Obviously people >> aren't always as out of it as was thought. Maybe that >> explains why so few have NDE's? >> >> Another good study taking place is objects being placed on high >> shelves so that people who are floating out of their bodies can >> report what they cannot have seen any other way. The idea for this >> came about because someone having a claimed OBE allegedly saw a >> training shoe outside on a window sill that he couldn't have seen >> from where he was. The plural of anecdote is not data though and >> no one has yet followed up with a "hit" on whatever these objects >> are. >> >> That's the way with paranormal research, early hope turns into >> disappointment when data gets stronger. Nail down the variables, >> like how long it takes to come off anaesthetic, and the amount >> of undeniably unexplainable experiences diminishes rapidly. >> It was always thus. I suspect the NDE belief will run and run >> as peoples desire to have confirmation of life after death is >> going to be good at papering over any cracks as you demonstrated >> in dismissing my point about seeing living relatives as well as >> dead ones. To the objective mind that's a clincher. >> >> So please don't assume that my placing NDE's in the "Bollocks" >> file means it was put there because it simply doesn't fit in with >> the way I see the world. The way I see things came about because >> the mystical world failed to make a good enough case for itself. > > >Here is an example of someone being gracious and taking the time to explain >clearly and concisely, without rudeness, why they feel like they feel. A >couple people might want to take note and try and see how nice it is to read >viewpoints when they are expressed without slamming what someone else believes. >That is all class, your are dismissed. > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >________________________________ >> > > From: salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ >> > >To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com >> > >Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 11:55 PM >> > >Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Michael Shermer rebuts Eben Alexander >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Xenophaneros Anartaxius" >> > ><anartaxius@> wrote: >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Emily Reyn <emilymae.reyn@> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > This is a beautiful picture.  Can you believe I just finished this >> > >> > book?  Eben Alexander refutes all this in the later Chapters of >> > >> > this book - he addresses this supposition of hallucination >> > >> > specifically by making the very real point that his neocortex was not >> > >> > functioning, amongst other things.  >> > >> > >> > >> How would he, in that state, know whether he even had a neocortex? >> > >> Someone had to feed him this information. Neurologists point out that >> > >> even in states where the patient seems to be in cardiac arrest, there >> > >> is some slight activity that keeps a small amount of blood flow to the >> > >> brain. In these emergency situations, there is no >> > >> electroencephalographic monitoring of the brain, though that might be >> > >> introduced as additional controls someday. No one has figured out just >> > >> when a patient has the NDE in these situations as they cannot point out >> > >> they are having an experience, so currently there are a lot of unknowns >> > >> about these experiences. Those that believe in NDEs assume the brain is >> > >> not functioning, but this is unknown except in the case where the >> > >> patient does not revive, and then of course they do not report an NDE. >> > >> These kinds of experiences often occur under very specific >> > >> circumstances where a patient or a subject is not in a life threatening situation >> > such as cardiac arrest, which is why scientists very substantially >> > question whether they have any 'supernatural' component at all. >> > > >> > >In the first big study of NDE's it was discovered that of >> > >the people who meet relatives only two thirds meet the already >> > >deceased. The rest meet people who are still alive, which underlines >> > >the wholly subjective nature of the phenomenon. >> > > >> > >And there isn't much in it that I haven't experienced from meditation >> > >let alone hallucinogen experiments. It's all in the mind guys... >> > > >> > >_______________________________ >> > >> > > From: Yifu <yifuxero@> >> > >> > >To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com >> > >> > >Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 7:04 PM >> > >> > >Subject: [FairfieldLife] Michael Shermer rebuts Eben Alexander >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >"Allegory of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ" by Pat Devonas: >> > >> > >http://www.museumsyndicate.com/images/2/10741.jpg >> > >> > > >> > >> > >Dr. Michael Shermer attempts to rebut Dr. Eben Alexander's NDE as >> > >> > >being genuinely "out of body" and supernatural. (Alexander is a >> > >> > >neurosurgeon who had an NDE. Claims he traveled out of the body into >> > >> > >supernatural dimensions in which he met deceased relatives, and >> > >> > >listened to the OM.) >> > >> > >... >> > >> > >Shermer in Scientific American, Apr 2013, 86, essentially uses a >> > >> > >"similarity" argument coupled with Occam's Razor. Shermer states: >> > >> > >"Migraine headaches also produce halluncinations, which Sacks >> > >> > >[neurologist Oliver Sacks] himself has experienced as a longtime >> > >> > >sufferer, including a 'shimmering light' that was 'dazzlingly >> > >> > >bring'" etc, etc, clouds, blah, blah. >> > >> > >Then Shermer goes on to make the comparison: "Compare Sack's >> > >> > >experience with that of Alexander's trip to heaven, where he was "in >> > >> > >a place of clouds. Big, puffy, pink-white ones that showed up >> > >> > >sharply against the deep blue-black sky. Higher than the clouds - >> > >> > >immeasurably higher - flocks of transparent, shimmering beings arced >> > >> > >across the sky, leaving long, streamerlike lines behind them.". >> > >> > >... >> > >> > >Then Shermer says "In any case, there is a reason they are called >> > >> > >'near'-death experiences: the people who have then are not actually >> > >> > >dead". Also he inquires how Alexander could have a memory of the >> > >> > >experiences. >> > >> > >. >> > >> > >Finally, Dr. Shermer states "To me, this evidence is proof of >> > >> > >hallucination, not heaven." >> > >> > >. >> > >> > >[his arguments on the whole are similar to those of Sam Harris]. >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > > > >
