You are utterly ignoring the way TM is presented to the general public and to the already meditating TM community - it is presented in the way I have already stated - as a superlative, infallible means of curing every ill. Just look at the PR. Its right there. I suggest you get the grip and look clearly at what the TMO is advertising and how they advertise it.
In addition, you are not taking into account the intense pressure the TMO, esp. at MUM puts on people to conform. The idea that many people believe is that TM and all its ancillary programs IS all they need and it is very difficult for them to deal with feelings that the TMO tells them they shouldn't be having, anger, depression and so on. They feel there is something wrong with them and they can't talk about it to anyone in their environment because all the get is ignored or TM platitudes. This is a real thing you are ignoring. ________________________________ From: "awoelfleba...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 9:41 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <steve.sundur@...> wrote : Michael, You just miss the point. I am no great TM defender. But you start with a misguided notion of what the practice of TM is capable of doing. And on that basis you make connections about what problems can be attributed to the practice of TM. There are many things I think are out of whack in regards the TMO culture, but I know, from experience, with my own 21 year old son, that this is a difficult period of ones life to navigate, with or without the practice of TM. And from my own difficult adolescence, the most the practice of TM was able to do for me was give me a few minutes of respite each day. I would wager, (or at least hope), that any parent within the TMO culture who felt they had a child at risk would take any necessary steps to address that risk. I knew the parents, or at least the father of the boy who committed suicide a few years ago, Daniel S. He did not live in any kind of fantasy world about TM. You make this silly statement that if my beliefs are so strong, I should consider working full time for the movement. To me that points out a blind spot in that you seem to have taken every claim made about TM at face value, never figuring in a discount that most people would naturally take. And when it fell short, you developed a vendetta. This has been my point all along. I don't think it is about taking the TM promises so literally - it is all so literal how MJ is 'reading' these claims and then presenting them as proof that TM doesn't work. It's almost as if he believes that those who practice TM are incapable of making a mistake or being sad or getting divorced. Come on. Get a grip. No one believes that just by learning a meditation technique that you are going to become super-human, infallible and perfect. And no one is buying the fact that because a meditator has decided to end their life that it completely invalidates the entire TM practice and condemns the Movement as being one big fraud. The world is never so black and white. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <mjackson74@...> wrote : Steve, I am glad you get something from TM, but you are burying your head in the sand if you ignore this - if you can refute it, do so. But this is the one thing about TM and all its stuff that bothers me the most. Whether you like it or not, there are numerous people who do TMSP long term who become basket cases in one way or another, and a number who attempt to or successfully commit suicide. I acknowledge that TM works for some, but the opposite is true as well. For some it is horrendous and for a balanced perspective, one has to look at both sides. You spend a fair amount of energy defending the Movement and TM, but if it REALLY is fabulous for you, why aren't you working for the Movement and living in a TM facility. Be real with it Steve. Even Charlie Lutes said that TM was not for everyone. He said that from time to time in lectures. When people would come to Charlie with problems, he would sometimes tell them to cut back on the TM practice, some were told to do it for only a few, maybe five minutes. Mark my words, when someone collects the info on all these TM suicides and makes it public, it will be the beginning of the downfall of the Movement. ________________________________ From: "steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife]" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF This is the continuous loop you always resort to at times like these, but it is so full of wrong or skewed assumptions, that who really wants to rebut them over and over. Like Ann recently said, (which was really nothing that was not quite evident), nobody seems to change any else's mind around here. Well at least on core issues. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <mjackson74@...> wrote : I think you are missing something. To me it is something that the Movement will obviously never address, since it would entail them admitting that TM is not all one needs in life and they would have to admit that there seemingly ARE "side effects" to long term practice to TM, especially when one is rounding. I knew Mark Totten, purusha siddha who committed suicide by stepping in front of a moving train just off campus in Fairfield, there was a young woman siddha who killed herself there in FF last year. I was looking at the facebook page dedicated to her life and memory and say a post by a woman who went to MUM saying that a number of students had attempted over the years to have some sort of dialogue or support groups for those who were feeling depressed or that sort of thing and as she put it the Movement shut them down quickly each time. She also said that from talking to the TM adults she knows, this Movement behavior has been going on a long time. The issue to me is the fact that TM and TMSP plus all the other TM programs, nostrums and snake oil are touted as being 100% life supporting with NO negative side effect or negative effects of any kind. Yet people still get depressed and experience other "negative" emotions and there is no way for them to deal with it in the Movement except ignore it and get the meditation checked which is a joke. If you talk as I have to people raised in the Movement, there is tremendous pressure from peers, older adults and official Movement people to not talk about such things, just keep your head down and praise MArshy and the Movement. When you have long term TM'ers practice mental techniques that are SUPPOSED to make life perfect (if you believe the hype the TMO puts out) and people are committing suicide including one purusha man who set himself on fire in Marshy's basement in Vlodrop, then a serious look at the negative effects of long term TM needs to be looked at. One man I spoke with whose siddha wife has twice attempted suicide said he could think of at least half a dozen suicides by long term TM'ers without even trying. This is a man raised in FF by parent TM'ers. ________________________________ From: "awoelflebater@... [FairfieldLife]" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 2:57 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <awoelflebater@...> wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <geezerfreak@...> wrote : >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Sheer-el Cohen. He was employed at the Raj. Apparently this happened >>>>>>>yesterday. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>Now this is supremely sad. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>It certainly is.Suicide is possibly the worst way to lose someone close >>>>>>to you, not only do you have to cope with the unexpected loss you can >>>>>>also have the guilty feelings that you didn't know it was coming and >>>>>>should have been able to stop it. But the reality is you can't. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>I am chilled by the language used in his plea for donations though. I >>>>>>expect this level of zeal from people who convert to the TM belief system >>>>>>when they are adults but to see that level of believerism in someone so >>>>>>young really disturbs me. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Any religious education disturbs me actually, I don't think we have the >>>>>>right to influence development in this way. Religion is like language, >>>>>>the first one you learn stays with you as part of you. Save it until you >>>>>>are grown up and wise enough to know better I say, childhood should be >>>>>>for exploration and learning how to judge things critically. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>But we don't know why he killed himself. It could have nothing to do with >>>>>>TM or his participation in it. Just because a tennis player kills >>>>>>themselves doesn't mean it was because they were disillusioned by tennis. >>>>>>There could be millions of other factors coming to play here. Or, am I >>>>>>missing something?
