It is Shirish Dave who wrote rebirth is wishful thinking. I am arguing for rebirth. The second question is what is the necessity of rebirth?One who is reborn is the soul that is reborn, and while taking rebirth it may have discarded the previous personalities altogether because they are no more necessary for future growth and future potentialities to develop. Or it may take help of whatever was formed and enter into the new body with all the formations of the past birth in whatever way they are modified, after going into those planes by going through necessary modifications with enriched material derived from the experiences of those planes. As a result of that we cannot expect that the soul that is now born will manifest the same tendencies which were present in the last incarnation. Napoleon of the last birth may be in this birth an ordinary soldier, no more the captain of the commander. Or he may be a businessman in the next birth or an ordinary navigator, depending upon what experiences he had already exhausted and what new potentialities he has to manifest. So it is idle to expect in a new personality continuation in the same form or same rhythm as it was in the previous birth.The common notion that the same personality who dies now is reborn is quite unscientific. It is only true of those very rudimentary personalities which have no capacity of transmigrating to higher planes and to exhaust themselves and to renew themselves, it is true only of those personalities. But for the others it is not so for most of the human beings it is not so. Otherwise there would be no evolution. If you are simply to be born again into a new body it would be senseless. Why would you have left the earlier body at all? We leave the earlier body because the circumstances in which we are living, the capacities which are there in the body have reached their point where they cannot have further development. We have reached a critical point where continuing in the same body has no further meaning in terms of evolution. http://www.kireetjoshiarchives.com/audio-video/audio.php?id=474
I would like to introduce one more complication in this simple description that I have given and that is the concept of individuality. Earlier we had said that the purpose of this game that we call the present world is to manifest the totality in the embodied individual; this is the general formula we had given. The true individual, we had said, is the jivatman and we had defined jivatman as the centration of the universal and transcendent Divine in a manifold movement of universe. This is the definition that we had given of the jivatman. The idea is that this centration should become embodied and in that embodied condition the transcendental and universal consciousness must fully manifest with specificity which that specific individual is designed to express. Until that happens in the embodied condition we are obliged to return to this physical world. This is the law of necessity.Why is it that we are obliged to come back to this earth? Supposing after coming out of this body we go into the plane of the life, plane of the mind and plane of the psychic, why do we not remain there all the time? Why are we obliged to come back? The necessity arises out of the fact is that the purpose for which we have agreed to play this role, reach a point in this embodied condition the totality must be manifest specific individually. And since this cannot happen in one birth or many births, it is imposed upon us that we have to come back again and again. Or you might say that we have taken a decision to do so along with God Himself. We want to participate in this game and so it is with the self choice that we come back again on earth so that that particular aim is fulfilled. So the important point is in the individuality. In the individuality, Totality must become manifest.In every evolutionary process here, the constant pressure is to develop individuality capable of manifesting Totality. This is the central drive in our life whether we realise it or not. Whatever we are doing in our life sharpens our individuality to such an extent that the Totality can manifest specifically through our individuality. And all that we are doing on this earth is a kind of work of a goldsmith. Our soul is very much compared with a goldsmith’s. The jivatman when it is embodied, it is embodied by its delegate called the soul. It is the soul that is the goldsmith which goes on shaping individuality of the body, life and mind and of itself.A most important activity that is going on in our life is the formation of individuality. This formation is basically the task of Agni, Fire. All formation, even in the physical world if you want to form or weld something without fire it is not possible. You cannot make a form stable without welding and without the fire element. Same thing is also true of the subtle planes. It is the fire element which welds, which gives formations and the soul is really the Agni element as we have seen earlier.This individuality is to be distinguished from ego formation. Ego formation is also a kind of individuality and most of us mistake our ego formation as the real individuality. We must be very clear about this distinction. Ego formation is the formation of individuality up to a certain point of development. But when we examine the ego consciousness, we find that ego consciousness has no substance behind it. This requires a little further explanation as to what this means.If you examine ego consciousness you’ll find there are three elements in it. There is the sense of ‘I’ness. Secondly, this ‘I’ness is concentrated upon a small, finite formation. And thirdly, it believes that it is independent of all the rest of the whole world. With regard to the three things, the ‘I’ness is a verifiable experience. We all feel ‘I’ness. You do not need to prove it. We also find that it is always centered on a small, finite formation. I am this much you are different from me, so I distinguish myself from all the rest so it is centered on a finite formation. Thirdly, it believes it is independent of all the rest, it believes it is but it is never so. There is nothing corresponding to this independence. The egoistic consciousness believes itself to be independent of all the rest but in the scheme of the world, when you examine objectively you find that it is never independent of all the rest. It is constantly dependent upon all the rest. It is you might say a puppet in the hands of the universal dancer. The whole universe is a dancing girl as it were and it is that which is dancing and the ego is simply a fingertip of the dancer. How can the fingertip be independent of the universal dancer? There is no substance in it. It is a false belief and there is nothing corresponding to the belief. That is why egoistic consciousness is unreal in itself as there is nothing corresponding to it. It is a sense but corresponding to the sense there is no reality. There is no real entity independent of all the rest. But because of this wrong belief there is a striving in it to maintain its independence. But wherever it feels its independence is attacked it creates a shield around itself and constantly struggles to keep itself in a make belief. In contrast to the ego consciousness, the soul consciousness is quite different. That is why we must make a distinction between ego and the soul. And the individuality that is to be developed and that is intended to be developed is not the egoistic individuality but the soul individuality. What is intended to be brought out is the soul individuality.Rebirth and Other Worlds - Rebirth Track 10 by Kireet Joshi | | | | | | | | | | | Rebirth and Other Worlds - Rebirth Track 10 by Kireet Joshi | | | | Gulati On Tuesday, 4 April 2017 8:20 AM, S Turkman <turk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: Gulati wrote: "The rebirth is a simply wishful thinking" ME:How many Scientifically Investigated Examples of cases of Reincarnation do you need to be convinced? Why you can not do some Research first before writing such a sentence? On Monday, April 3, 2017 9:37 PM, "devindersingh gulati dgulh...@yahoo.com [TheBecoming]" <thebecom...@yahoogroups.com> wrote: There are various possibilities.1. The physical universe is the only universe. Once the soul comes out of the body there is nowhere else it has to go, so it goes into another body immediately. So, transmigration to some other world, heaven or hell or other worlds does not arise at all. This is true if the physical world is the only reality. If the physical universal is not the only reality then other possibilities arise.We have found:“The soul would have no freedom from Matter; it would be perpetually bound to its instrument, the body, and dependent on it for the continuity of its manifested existence. But we have found that there is a life on other planes after death and before the subsequent rebirth, a life consequent on the old and preparatory of the new stage of terrestrial existence. Other planes coexist with ours, are part of one complex system and act constantly upon the physical which is their own final and lowest term, receives its reactions, admit a secret communication and commerce. Man can become conscious of these planes, can even in certain states project his conscious being into them, partly in life, presumably therefore with a full completeness after the dissolution of the body.”This is the second alternative.2. Physical universe is not the only universe. In fact in one of the important articles of Vedic knowledge there is a discovery of other worlds other than the physical universe. The Vedic seers were able to find out that there are worlds other than the physical world of which we have physical experience. And therefore he described the whole world in a very symbolic manner. He said the world is like an animal which has two heads, 4 horns and 3feet – it is like a riddle – dveshirasa, chaturshringa, tripada. Three feet consist of 3 worlds, the lower worlds, the world of matter, the world of life and the world of mind tripada. Even in the world there are 3 earths, the Veda speaks of 3 earths. Even in the earth principle there are two other earth principles of which we are not normally aware. The earth principle is called prithvi. The second is antariksha and the third is dhyao or heaven that is the mind. When the Vedic Rishis prayed they prayed that first shanti may be dhyao shanti, antariksha shanti, prithvi shanti; tripada, the three worlds. Then comes another world, which is called the world of Truth and Vast, �”� the world of Satyam, Ritam, Brihad, the Truth, the Right and the Vast. This is called the higher heaven. Dhyao is the lower heaven sometimes also referred to as Swaha.In the Gayatri mantra we speak of Bhur is prithvi, Bhuva is antariksha and dhyao together and swaha is this swaha, higher than that is the triple world which is spiritual �”� Satchitananda. So Satchitananda and Swaha, Truth and vast these are the four horns. The 3 feet are the feet of matter, life and mind. The four horns are Satchitananda and truth and vast. These are the 7 Realities, 7 worlds. 4 higher worlds and three lower. The 4 horns are the higher worlds and the tripada, 3 feet the lower worlds, �”� 4 higher and 3 lower worlds. All this is the manifestation of a reality which is dual in character, which has 2 heads, which is Ardhanareshwar; which is supreme, at once the Lord and Divine Mother; which is the ultimate justification of the sex principle in the world. Aditi is called the Divine Feminine principle, the first Divine Mother from whom all creatures are born. And the lord is often the image of Rishabha, the Supreme Bull, the image of the Veda. The knowledge of the existence of these worlds was a precious possession of the Vedic Rishis.This was not just a belief. It was as if the Rishis were able to move into these worlds at will. They could enter into any world as they willed. It was a kind of personal experience. Just as we can say that I have seen the world and have no doubt of its existence, at least so far as my senses go. Similarly, one can say I have entered into the world of the truth and vast. I have entered the world of life, or of mind. In the world of mind there will be only the world of ideas and no matter as we see it. In the world of life there will be world desires, impulses. When you enter into the higher world of the Supermind, when you go to the higher level, Truth and Right and Vast, you will see only the manifestation which is luminous, the world of light, the world of delight, world of consciousness and the world of existence. These worlds were known to the Upanishads also, before Upanishads accepted this whole theory, not a theory according to them, but knowledge.Those who believe that there is only this world and no other world at all for them there is no liberation. They remain in this world of death, madhyaloka. So the knowledge of these worlds is necessary for liberation. http://www.kireetjoshiarchives.com/audio-video/audio.php?category=rebirth-and-other-worlds&id=472If already you have the power of entering into that world then as soon as you go out of this body it will be very easy to enter into it. But if you have not attained to that level of development then you may come back immediately into this body. But if you have developed that capacity then you can go into that world after the death of the body. Gulati On Monday, 3 April 2017 8:42 PM, "shirish dave smdave1...@yahoo.com [TheBecoming]" <thebecom...@yahoogroups.com> wrote: "The body which is here is burnt and is turned to ashes or is buried and there it gets disintegrated. But besides this physical body, there is the internal body that does not get immediately disintegrated." What is that internal body?Of what elements the internal body is made of? By which force the said so called internal body remained associated with the physical body?Why has it left the physical body?What are the organs of that internal body?How does that internal body function?What are the properties of that internal body? No body can answer these and many more other questions and prove the existence of internal body logically. The rebirth is a simply wishful thinking. We are all made of a single fundamental entity you may name it Prana, Anna, Super String, Super particle. This fundamental entity is alive. It is not possible to produce living organism from non-living organisms in whatsoever number they are arranged. We are made of cells. Cells are made of molecules, molecules are made of atoms. Atoms are made of other subatomic particles, they are made of quarks, and at the end all are made of the combinations of superstrings. This superstring is the prime living organism, which has single property to attract other similar. No different entitity having different property can intereact. Under physical laws, superstrings formed subatomic particles and then atoms, molecules and complicated molecules like amoebas and bectarias under favorable conditions. Then they under went evolution under fittest to survive. Superstring is a Soul. Soul + Soul = Soul. The Cosmic Soul is the universe. From: devindersingh gulati <dgulh...@yahoo.com> Sent: Monday, 3 April 2017 5:17 AM Subject: Re: [TheBecoming] Re: Spirit & Reincarnation First question is who is reborn?The second question is what is the necessity of rebirth?The third is what is the process of rebirth?The answer to the first question who is reborn is, there is a normal, common, popular notion that the man whom we saw dying is really reborn. This is a very common, normal idea. A man or woman who has died is reborn. And we begin to expect in the rebirth the same tendencies which that man or woman who had died possessed. If that man was heroic we expect that in next rebirth the same heroic man will continue to be heroic. If that man was greedy then in the next birth the same personality will continue to be greedy. If that personality had certain attachments with X or Y or Z then we expect that in the next birth the same will continue. Such are vague unclear, common notions. These notions are based on facts that we do not make distinctions. Between four elements which are in our personality there is the physical element, the physical body in which we are living; there is the vital element which consists of desires, impulses, attractions, repulsions, longings; there is a mental which consists of ideas, conceptions, dreams of various kinds, visions of various kinds and finally there is a soul in us. We do not even know the interconnection of all this.As a result of this, our notion of the personality that dies and the personality that is born is also a very vague and very unclear notion. Surely the same physical body is not reborn. That body which is here is burnt and is turned to ashes or is buried and there it gets disintegrated. But besides this physical body, there is the internal body that does not get immediately disintegrated. This is called the subtle physical body. The word subtle physical is a larger term which includes subtle physical, vital and mental also. But in the subtle body there is a subtle physical body also. This subtle physical body survives for quite some time and if the vital and mental are not very much developed in us, if the soul in us is not very much developed in us, then there would be an immediate physical rebirth in another body. It would be almost a continuation of the kind of personality that there was before because nothing was developed. This answers to the common idea of the same personality being reborn. But this happens only in the case of very rudimentary human beings, very, very elementary, very barbaric human beings whose life is centered only on the physical and other parts of the being are not developed. Now, for those who have got vital being quite developed, mind also to some extent developed, and the soul also slightly developed; in that case after the disintegration of the physical body, also the subtle physical, the vital continues for some time. It was developed already; it does not disappear. But on the physical earth, basically only physical beings can live that is the specialty of this physical world.If anyone wants to come on the earth and live on the earth, he has got to have a physical body. If he does not have a physical body then one cannot live long on the physical plane. So, there must be another plane where this vital being developed in this body, which has still not disintegrated, which is still continuing, passes through a certain plane and that must be a plane corresponding to its own nature. If it is a vital being it goes to the life plane, the vital plane, a vital world, a world which consists of vital beings. This is a part of the occult knowledge. That apart from the physical world there is a vital world.http://www.kireetjoshiarchives.com/audio-video/audio.php?category=rebirth-and-other-worlds&id=473So once you go to the life plane then you get a freer domain of expressing your vital being. This also is a very important idea.What does it mean to get a freer field to express the vital being? You notice that in this world of the physical, we are constantly hampered by physical disabilities. There are many things that we would like to do but either we are sick or we get fatigued very easily, or else there is a need for sleep. Very often when our vital being is very powerful we feel we should have 48 hours in a day to be able to do everything that we want to do. There are so many things to be done but it is the physical existence which hampers our full manifestation of all our vital activities. In the vital plane this disability would not be there, so that it may have a freer play of its energies. Very often many things that we cannot do here in the physical plane we are able to accomplish in the vital plane, this we are able to do by transmigrating into the life plane. And we reach a point where all that we wanted to do is as it were exhausted.Once that is done then we are able to pass to the other plane and if our mind was developed to some extent then we go to the mental plane. There again, what we were not able to do mentally here, we are able to accomplish over there. And a point is reached where it is exhausted and then we are able to move to the plane of the pure soul being which is called the Psychic plane. It is the psychic being actually, which is the individual formation of the soul; which is immortal, it never disintegrates, it is the inextinguishable flame. So that which really survives the body after the death of the body it is this psychic body or soul which remains disintegrated. The vital can become exhausted, mental can become exhausted but the soul is never exhausted. It is actually you might say an entity of potentiality which remains disintegrated.It is this soul personality which has a sojourn on the psychic plane. And according to the level of evolution that it has reached in the past births, and according to the potentiality it has got of manifestation in the future, it waits for the circumstances on the earth to arise appropriate to the need and then it takes a new body on the physical plane by descending into the physical plane. Very often when the soul is not very developed it does not make a conscious choice of the circumstances in which it is to be born. It happens almost like gravitation. But when the soul development has been sufficiently great, then it can decide exactly when it is to be born. It can even preside over the formation of the body, determine the formation of the body and take the birth according to its needs very consciously. In the case of very developed souls this is the normal condition. So it is actually the soul that takes birth.http://www.kireetjoshiarchives.com/audio-video/audio.php?category=rebirth-and-other-worlds&id=474 Gulati On Sunday, 2 April 2017 6:40 PM, "devindersingh gulati dgulh...@yahoo.com [TheBecoming]" <thebecom...@yahoogroups.com> wrote: I am saying the same thing, only differently.1. There is a soul.2. It is permanent.3. It evolves.4. To begin with, it is ineffective to control life. 5. In the beginning instincts and desires predominate over mind.6. Gradually the mind asserts its sovereignty.7. Mind is in turn more and more influenced by soul as it grows. 8. Reincarnation of soul becomes necessary for the process to complete itself.9. Reincarnation is as human only.10. Formations (Samskars) of desires that are very strong may reincarnate in animals, not the soul. Once you grant that there is a necessity of rebirth then many questions arise. “There arises the first question of the process of rebirth; if that process is not quickly successive, birth immediately following death of the body so as to maintain an uninterrupted series of lives of the same person, if there are intervals, that in its turn raises the question of the principle and process of the passage to other worlds, which must be the scene of these intervals, and the return to earth–life. A third question is the process of the spiritual evolution itself and the mutations which the soul undergoes in its passage from birth to birth through the stages of its adventure.”The first question is what is the process of rebirth? Who is reborn, how is one reborn? In what form is he reborn?The second is, is rebirth immediately successive. There are two notions which are running in the world amongst those who believe in rebirth, not sufficiently reconciled. According to one view you leave this body and you are immediately reborn into another body. According to the other view once you come out of the body you go through experiences of pleasure and pain according to whether you have been good or bad on this earth. If you have been good you go to heaven and pleasures of some kind, otherwise you will be chastised and sent to hell for some time. And when this is over you take another birth. This is a popular notion, not necessarily scientifically verifiable. These are the current notions. We have to arrive at a very scientific conclusion on this subject. Is rebirth immediately successive or if not immediately successive then what happens to the soul in the interval?The third question is that in the whole process of dying, coming out of the body, passing to wherever one has to pass after the death of the body, returning to the new body; what is it that the soul gains and how does it evolve itself. What is the process of its evolution? What role does nature play and what role does the soul play in the evolution of consciousness, which is the real purpose. These are the three questions that arise.http://www.kireetjoshiarchives.com/audio-video/audio.php?category=rebirth-and-other-worlds&id=471 Gulati On Sunday, 2 April 2017 9:07 AM, S Turkman <turk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: As I said before, we are made of 3 things. Physical Body, Astral Body and Spirit. When we die, Astral Body disintegrates and Spirit flies away to get Reincarnated again as a Human of a 4 Legged Animal depending on each case but normally back to another Human.Some in their 1st Sojourn or higher as Human may prefer to be Reincarnated back as 4 Legged Animals, where they had started from, if they did not like their Human Life. CASE & POINT I had an American friend, who could converse with 4 Legged Animals using telepathy (Mentally without saying any words)..i asked, why she did not use this skill at the Horse Races to win a lot of money?She said, "They are like 5 to 8 years old Children mentally. 3 or 4 of them say, they would win the Race. Normally one of them wins but sometimes, one of the rest of them, who had said, they would not, wins. One day, I was with her in a Shopping Center on Milwaukee & Dempster Street, Desplaines, Illinois, USA. I saw a very crazy kind of Pet Dog of some lady that had gone inside leaving it outside. I requested her to talk with it. Following is the conversation: LADY: Why are you acting so crazy?DOG: Because I am crazy?LADY: Why don't you straighten out your act so,you could be born as a Human?DOG: I have already done that. I was a Human. LADY: Did you act this crazy as a Human also?DOG: Yes and I could not enter Fetus of a Human after that. LADY: Do you like this life as a Dog?DOG: Yes. LADY: Why?DOG: Because this life is more fun and less restrictive. LADY: How?DOG: You saw me rape a little Bitch. Nobody arrested me to take to Jail. When I used to do this as a Human, they used to take me to Jail and in court the Raped Girl used to testify so, I had started killing them after raping so, they could not testify. 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