Excellent conversation. Thanks. **
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Him: > > I said, about your "enlightened" friend: > >> Good for him. Really. But no big deal. Why would it be? > > > Me: > > > >I didn't say it was. Neither would he. But I was somehow under the > >impression that you didn't believe people experienced such states. > > Him: > No, I don't have time to clarify my position right now but you might > remember that I don't doubt the notion of continuous witnessing (in fact, > I've had very long stretches of it) nor even of "celestial vision/ god > consciousness" (though it is defined and described variously); it's just > that direct experiences has taught me that these experiences are not very > valuable. I don't call these states enlightenment, thought they DO fit > the Hindu model of what the term (in it's various forms: bodhi, > jivanmukta, brahmavidya, etc.) means. I think the Mahayana Buddhists have > the bar set in the correct place for two reasons: (1) because reaching the > ten paramitas (perfections) is a much more wholistic bar, and (2) because > since it's unreachable, there's less danger of bad-guru adulation. As > you will also remember, since all human experience outside of pure samadhi > is shaped and interpreted by previous conditioning, there is no such thing > as unmediated "conscious of" experience - and this is easily proven in the > laboratory. Lastly, I also agree with Huston smith that what is much more > important than altered states of consciousness is altered traits of > behavior. TM rhetoric aside, if one has ussues with one's family before > they reach "enlightenment," they'll continue to have them after as well. > What we need is about ten thousand more each of Mother Theresa, Bill > McKibben, Dorothy Day, Noam Chomskys, and "Doctors Without Borders" and > far less emphasis on the enlightenment model. Even when we speak within > groups fostering that model, all emphasis (of course this is only my > opinion) for measuring spiritual maturity should be on how wisdom > manifests as compassion. Enlightenment means nothing to me if it doesn't > show up in direct action to help. > > Me: I pretty much agree with you, although I still think the solitary yogi > in a cave may be making a significant contribution in subtle yet powerful > ways. But I feel strongly that if someone like MMY steps up on the public > stage and claims or implies that he is a super-duper enlightened guy, then > he'd better be able to walk his talk. > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.23/924 - Release Date: 7/28/2007 > 3:50 PM >
