Good points. We've just learned so much skepticism about everything
FIP.
I'm wondering also - how do you get a vet to do something different -
like a vitamin C drip? I know one vet who would and could do that,
I'm pretty sure - but she's 60 miles away, and I have trouble finding
free time to do drive away for a day.. Guess I just have to look
around some more locally.
Gloria
On Nov 25, 2009, at 9:33 AM, jbero tds.net wrote:
I think you all have valid points. Here are my thoughts.
1. Overdiagnosis of FIP - this is way hard to estimate because the
diagnosis is difficult to come by. In fact, the pathophysiology of
the
disease is poorly understood so it may actually represent a
constellation of
diseases. In the end, however, the question is treatment. I think
it is
foolish to give a diagnosis of FIP if you are simply going to give
up and
put the animal down. If, however, you have no other explanation and
the
clinical signs are highly suspicious then you have to look at the
possibility that it is. That's what I see happened in this case.
Given
that, what are you going to do. You have no other explanation, so
how do
you treat, do you wait until they die and do an autopsy to prove
it's FIP or
do you try something. I would try something.
2. Skepticism - I understand skepticism because I have tried and
failed on
more than one occassion with difficult viral diseases in cats. I
really get
that. What I do not understand (and if someone can enlighten me, I
would
be open to it) is how someone can see an animal suspected to have FIP,
treated successfully and then say it was not FIP. How does one know
that,
how does one know that they did not successfully treat the
disease? If someone says the only way to truely diagnose is by
autopsy and
the cat survived, prove to me they did not have FIP. If someone is
saying
it's not FIP only on the basis that the cat survived, well that's a
useless
statement to me. The skepticism works both ways - you can be
skeptical it
wasn't or skeptical it was. But in the end the difference is the
treatment. I know it's not perfect science but medicine never is.
So if you have tested for a number of common diseases, and all but the
coronavirus were negative; there was a familial association, recent
history
of stress (spay, neuter, vaccination) in a young cat, and clinical
signs/symptoms of the disease - short of putting the animal down and
doing
an autopsy, you've got a good of a diagnosis as you can get.
3. Medicine in general - Medicine is truely an art. Every
individual is
different. Every individual responds differently to life, stress,
disease
and treatment. Simply because a treatment works on one animal and not
another does not mean they carry a different diagnosis. Especially
in an
immune related disease. The spectrum of disease presentation can be
broad
and the spectrum of response to treatment can be equally as broad.
Does
that mean we don't try? I don't think so. We all fail, it's
whether or not
we get back up and try again that determines our character. High dose
Vitamin C appears to work for some (and there is a good scientific
basis for
why if you look into close enough) maybe not for all, but at the
very least,
it is an option where there are so few.
I respect all you for your dedication to understanding, treating and
erradicating the diseases that plague these animals. I know we are
all
trying to do what's best for them. We each may have a different
approach
but I am glad to know there are people like all of you with such a
desire
and passion to help. I have learned from all of you. God bless.
Jenny
On 11/24/09, Gloria B. Lane <gbl...@aristotle.net> wrote:
I do think that part of the issue with this fortunate situation, is
that
some of us have seen vets call anything they can't explain, or
anything with
a high corona titer, FIP, and it's frustrating, for lack of a
better word.
I had a lovely healthy Persian kitten that died AFTER spay surgery,
a few
years ago, and the vet said must have been FIP. I think the vet
and his
assistant probably just weren't careful with her airway after
surgery, after
they put her back in the cage.
Gloria
On Nov 23, 2009, at 5:00 PM, Diane Rosenfeldt wrote:
I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but did want to make
one point
-- just in case it hasn't been addressed previously (although with
the
knowledge base here, I can't imagine it hasn't). So apologies if
this is a
dead horse but: It's been drummed into me that the presence of
coronavirus
alone is not an indicator for FIP since many if not most cats have
it in
their systems. This has been such a cause of panic even among vets
who
should know better and has resulted in so many needless deaths
that I
thought it bore repeating. What causes the coronavirus to mutate
into FIP
is
a combination of heredity, circumstance, and possibly God having a
sh-tty
day and wanting to punish some innocents.
All the best vibes to the kitten in question! Hang in there,
darlin'.
Diane R.
-----Original Message-----
From: felvtalk-boun...@felineleukemia.org
[mailto:felvtalk-boun...@felineleukemia.org] On Behalf Of jbero
tds.net
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:30 PM
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Reversal of FIP in my six-month-old kitten
I find the skepticism and questioning surrounding the diagnosis and
treatment of FIP interesting. I have to say, however, that every
laboratory
test, whether it be in human or veterinary medicine, is subject to
failure;
either giving false positives or false negatives. This is a far
more
common
problem than most people may understand. Nothing is 100% in any
test,
ever.
The best and really only currently known way to deal with this is by
looking
at the clinical presentation, history and lab work together.
In this case, the presence of coronavirus in a related kitten, the
age of
the kitten, the clinical symptoms of fever, anemia and central
nervous
system impairment, I would say, that you are very very very likely
looking
at FIP or at least the entity in how it is understood. As far as
diagnosing
it by autopsy, it can also be done with a tissue biopsy. You are
looking
for pyogenicgranulomas, a histologic (microscopic) diagnosis.
FIP is an
entity that is not entirely understood therefore diagnosiing it
accurately
is difficult. It is simply a constellation of symptoms and lab
work.
That
is precisely what you are looking at in this situation.
What I am saying is that there is a cyclical line of reasoning
here. FIP
cannot be easily diagnosed and all are in agreement with that, so
dismissing
that this is FIP on the grounds that it's not been definitively
diagnosed
is
nonsensical. Given the fact that it fulfills most of the criteria
for FIP
we have to go with the most likely scenario that it is. It fits a
non
effusive form of FIP almost perfectly.
Given that, I am excited about the possibility of a treatment.
Whatever
this cat had, whatever you believe was the diagnosis (and by the
way it is
obvious that extensive tests, looking to identify alternate
causes, were
done). Whether you call FIP a wastebasket diagnosis, this cat
responded
and
survived. The other cat, with identical symptoms, did not receive
this
full
treatment and died. There is some success here, whatever your
belief on
the
diagnosis is.
I understand skepticism but there something happened here, even
with don't
fully understand what. Is it not worth, therefore, investigating?
Well, that's just my opinion.
Jenny
On 11/23/09, MaryChristine <twelvehousec...@gmail.com> wrote:
corona virus titres do NOT prove FIP. cats can have high FeCoV
titres
and not progress to FIP, and cats who have progressed to FIP can
have
low titres because their exposure was so long before that the virus
itself is out of their systems, although the FIP mutation is not.
FIP is the new favorite diagnosis for, "we haven't a clue."
like susan, i would love for there to be an answer for FIP--it's
much
worse than FeLV, because there's no way to predict who will get
it, no
way to prevent it, and no way to treat it. but calling everything
FIP,
as has become the habit over the past three years or so, just makes
actual diagnosis and learning more muddier.
MC
--
Spay & Neuter Your Neighbors!
Maybe That'll Make The Difference....
MaryChristine
Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue
(www.purebredcats.org
)
Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team)
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