||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Progressive News & Views (since 1982) ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Eye of the beholder. Those who cannot see what Israel has done wrong...and terribly wrong....are not unlike those who believe the US can do no wrong. It's a pointless discussion. Read the Tikkun and Voices for Peace pages..... stop labeling Jews who want a just peace as being 'too far left.' Look at the truth.....or at least the experiences of both sides.... not just that of the Israelis.... not the Jews... the Israelis... This is a political, not a religious war. It's over land and water rights...and the right wing zealots are pawns. They were paid huge bucks to settle in lands they had no legal right to. If you play with International law.... and say it is just the work of lawyers, you destroy the premise of civilized nations living under law. That's nonsense.
Hank Roth wrote: >||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >Progressive News & Views (since 1982) >||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| > > >Don't tell me International Law is clear on anything. > >In any event, no Reggie, International Law does not establish a de jure >occupation by Israel. First of all, International Law is a construct of >lawyers. There is NOTHING in it that is established (or sacrosanct).. >Before I decided to develop land I was going to go into International Law >but did not because of the uncertainty of it and the necessity for getting >into foreign service to utilize those lessons which were never that clear >anyway and decided I wanted to do something a bit more concrete (no pun >intended), and with this - as there is with much of International Law >there is varied law. It does not rest entirely on stare decisis like >American common law. > >Arabs have a different take. Some in the international community do also > - but it is all anti-Israel propaganda ... >You lean too far in that direction -- like many Jewish leftists, including >the left in Israel, tend to do >without being fully informed. > >The former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, His Honor Meir Shamgar >wrote in the 1970s that there was NO de jure occupation per the 1949 >Fourth Geneva Convention with regard to the territories. > >The only clear distinction given the disagreement including your >assertions is that the territories are "disputed." > BUT, I don't buy that. I see nothing disputable about it. > >And you miss the point about annexation. Jordan did it and it was >recognized by Britain and Pakistan, and they took it the same way Israel >did but they annuled the annexation. I said it would have been better if >Israel did annex. AND all those who won't live in ONE state which would >encompass the West Bank and all of Israel would have to leave. But no >right of return for the Arabs who left and even with the increase in >population it would not be the problem you envision in a democracy that >has a constitution which stipulates that Israel can never be a theocracy >nor be based on religion law. BUT, of course the radical Jews and Muslims >would have no part of it - so separation is the answer - and the wall >insures Israel's security and the IDF does the rest. > >Hank > >On Wed, 8 Feb 2006, Reggie wrote: > > > >>||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >>Progressive News & Views (since 1982) >>||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >>Wrong. International Law is very clear on this. The 'occupied' >>territories are NOT the property of Israel. Had Israel annexed the >>territories....it would be a different story. Of course that would have >>been impossible - because it would have meant giving all the >>Palestinians the vote..... yeah, right. >>Israel has occupied... not owned the territories it conquered. >>Conquered lands must be turned back to the people who inhabited it. That >>is INTERNATIONAL LAW to which Israel is a signatory. >> >>Let's not whitewash Israel's faults. The settlers, claiming that God >>gave them the right to all of 'greater Israel' have displaced millions >>of people. They have all the rights of citizens of Israel while >>Palestinians are humiliated, denied travel rights even within the >>territories, and have their homes and land taken at will and have no >>rights to the waters of the Jordan... a MAJOR point here. Remember. that >>when a Palestinian child dies as a result of rocket attacks by Israel on >>'militants' - it is collateral damage. When an Israeli child is killed, >>he or she is the victim of a terrorist. Twice as many Palestinian >>children have been killed since the Sharon-instigated Intifada than >>Israeli children. Bloodshed is bloodshed. Both sides suffer. >>Palestinian mothers grieve the same way Israeli mothers do.... >> >>A long, sad story, - but Israel, like the US has been stolen by the >>religious right...and the zealots who dream of owing all the land that >>was not theirs since Biblical times....but who lay claim to it now. It >>will never end. >> >>Watch a film called "Peace and Propaganda in the Promised Land" - made >>by Jewish journalists. Read the pages of Tikkun or Jews for Peace or >>any of the hundreds of organizations that cannot get a voice in the >>mainstream media.... to show that there IS another side. >> >> >> >>Hank Roth wrote: >> >> >> >>>||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >>>Progressive News & Views (since 1982) >>>||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| >>>Forwarded from dada Fightback list: >>> >>>Accusing Israel of "illegal occupation" is a bullshit charge. >>>You cannot occupy what is already yours. >>> >>>This analysis clearly points out legal and compelling reasons why it is >>>incorrect to consider the territories occupied by Israel. (Israel holds >>>the deed) Furthermore, settlements should be immediately annexed to make >>>that claim obvious and all belligerent Arabs should be removed from those >>>areas where they are a threat to Israel's existence and well-being. >>> >>> Describing the territories as "Palestinian" may serve the political >>>agenda of one side in the dispute, but it prejudges the outcome of future >>>territorial negotiations that were envisioned under UN Security Council >>>Resolution 242. It also represents a total denial of Israel's fundamental >>>rights. Furthermore, reference to "resisting occupation" has simply become >>>a ploy advanced by Palestinian and Arab spokesmen to justify an ongoing >>>terrorist campaign against Israel, despite the new global consensus >>>against terrorism that has been formed since September 11, 2001. >>> >>>To read this article in full, go to: http://pnews.org/ArT/ZioN/OcC.shtml >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- >>> / o o \ >>>====OO=====OO========================= >>>Hank Roth's Place - http://pnews.org/ >>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (on the InterNUT since 1982) >>>============================================ >>>Fightback - notification news and views list >>>Subscribe/Unsub at: http://pnews.org/dada/ >>>================================================ >>>Fightback - (pnews "progressive news and views") >>>OPEN discussion - subscribe or unsubscribe in >>>subject line: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>================================================ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> ----- >> / o o \ >>====OO=====OO========================= >>Hank Roth's Place - http://pnews.org/ >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (on the InterNUT since 1982) >>============================================ >>Fightback - notification news and views list >>Subscribe/Unsub at: http://pnews.org/dada/ >>================================================ >>Fightback - (pnews "progressive news and views") >>OPEN discussion - subscribe or unsubscribe in >>subject line: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>================================================ >> >> >> > > > ----- > / o o \ >====OO=====OO========================= >Hank Roth's Place - http://pnews.org/ >[EMAIL PROTECTED] (on the InterNUT since 1982) >============================================ >Fightback - notification news and views list >Subscribe/Unsub at: http://pnews.org/dada/ >================================================ >Fightback - (pnews "progressive news and views") > OPEN discussion - subscribe or unsubscribe in >subject line: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >================================================ > > > > > ----- / o o \ ====OO=====OO========================= Hank Roth's Place - http://pnews.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (on the InterNUT since 1982) ============================================ Fightback - notification news and views list Subscribe/Unsub at: http://pnews.org/dada/ ================================================ Fightback - (pnews "progressive news and views") OPEN discussion - subscribe or unsubscribe in subject line: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ================================================
