Dear Nikhil,
I think it is a very interesting exercise to see how a consensus might be
reached on your work by both adding to and subtracting from the different
perspectives. Thus, I agree with Stan that we are looking at instances of
isomorphism at different levels, and this for me is entirely logical (;-).
Levels of reality exist and the rules that apply in them are not identical,
and this constitutes a discontinuity between them. Also, within a given
level involving three elements, even if they all influence one another, it
should be possible to decompose the interactions into those between A and B,
the resultant of which interacts with C. This is Pedro's comment in somewhat
different terms.
On the other hand, as I have argued elsewhere, the use of the term
'self-organization' does not bring any additional knowledge. It diverts
attention from the dynamics of the different flows, which are also affected
by such a multitude of external factors, actual and potential, that the
process could equally well be called hetero-organization. Also, and I
really just ask this as a question, how does the concept of hierarchy affect
the analysis? If as you write there are different species involved in
exchange networks across ascending levels, what would be important to know
are the details of these exchanges. Here, the above discontinuity between
levels seems to be replaced by a degree of continuity. Your statement
implies to me interactions /between/ different levels, but are these
interactions bi-directional reactions? How would the rates of forward and
back reactions be related?
I look forward to your comments on the above which I assure you is intended
to be constructive.
Best wishes,
Joseph
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pedro C. Marijuan" <pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>
To: <fis@listas.unizar.es>
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Fis] Sustainability through multilevel research: The Lifel,
Deep Society Build-A-Thon - 1
Dear Nikhil and colleagues (Bob, Stan...),
Let me concur with Stan's arguments. I think you are working with
original ideas about two different instances of self-organization in
Nature where metabolic-energetic flows are modulated by third parties
in order to maintain some maximum of stability in a very complex
co-assemblage so that it may result compatible with the existing
limitations of the global environment. It is sort of a fiscal agency or an
energy police-body that keeps an overall adaptive order in the
multifarious exchange of flows.
The two instances you describe are widely independent, in spite of the
relative links existing (in the ecosphere, it is very difficult the
complete independence). Forcing them into a hierarchy is not the best
idea, in my opinion, as the two description are quite interesting,
original, and advanced by themselves--particularly in order to land on the
global problems of the economic order of our times. Connecting
meaningfully with the path discussed by Bob and his colleagues requires
quite a bit of further thinking. Economic organization is based finally on
symmetry and symmetry breaking at different "levels" (just from the
double-entry accounting of the agent to the collective market prices and
valuation of stocks, to the financial coupling with the "real" economy).
Like in the biological organization of information flows, there is a
generalized dialectics of balances and modulations, of symmetry and
symmetry breakings, yes, in some hierarchical framework. Unfortunately the
information/symmetry topic is far from being properly developed as a
"complexity engine", except maybe in physics, and we prefer indulging in
independent disciplinary conceptualizations, preferably inspired in
mechanics, that obfuscate understanding.
It is a rather difficult discussion... Further efforts from yours and your
colleagues, and other parties in the list would be needed. From my part,
this weekend I will re-read your papers and Bob's links. We cannot
renounce to advance in this discussion.
All the best--Pedro
Nikhil Joshi wrote:
Dear Stan,
You raise a very interesting and important question.
Recent findings suggest that mycorrhiza could modulate the rate of
assimilation of molecules (driven by changing rates of photosynthesis)
across groups of plants by modulating the flow of phosphorous (from the
subsoil sources) across competing autotrophic species. Such modulation
alters the overall conversion of geochemical (molecular) resources into
biomass. Hence the modulatory effects of mycorrhizal modulation are at
the level of molecular flows between geo-cycles and autotrophs (level 1).
What is suggested here is that gut bacteria are involved in the
modulation of rate of reproduction of cellular and multicellular species.
Hence their effect is at a cellular level (level 2)
Hence the activities of the two modulator systems are at two different
scales- molecular and cellular.
A multilevel view reveals a growing complexity in the species involved in
exchange networks across ascending levels (compositional hierarchy) from
molecules, to cells, multicellular species, and social Organization. A
compositional hierarchy is also seen at each level in the emergence of
community structure at each level. However, I agree that these
observations do not constitute a complete description of the hierarchal
relationships in these systems. The developing a formal hierarchical view
would provide much clearer view of these systems and their
interconnections. Given my limited knowledge of formal hierarchies, I
would appreciate your assurance and views on this. Thanking you, Warm
regards,
Nikhil
Sent from my iPhone
Nikhil Joshi
--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
-------------------------------------------------
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