Hi John, Pedro, and FISers
(1) I agree with John that there must exist a set of the principles, laws or
concepts that apply universally, from molecules to cells to human brains to the
cosmos. But the millions dollar question is what are these principles, laws
and concepts?
(2) I disagree that "chemiosmosis" of P. Mitchell is one of the principles
underlying life's physiology. I will delineate the reasons for my objecting
the concept of chemiosmosis being a fundamental mechanism of energy
transduction in living cells in a later post. I recently discussed this topic
in Section 3.3.3 in [1] entitled "Deconstructing the Chemiosmotic Model"
(3) I disagree that "negentropy", also called "negative entropy", is a
fundamental concept in biology or physics. I critiqued this concept in Section
3.3.3 in [2]. To make a long story sort, there are two meanings to the term
"negentropy", one violating the Third Law of thermodynamics and the other not
(see Table 1 below).
Table 1. The dual meanings of the term “negentropy”
Negentropy
Negative Entropy
(-S)
Negative Entropy Change
(- ΔS)
Third Law of thermodynamics
is violated
is not violated
(4) The Second Law of thermodynamics when applied to an isolated system (i.e.,
a system that does not exchange energy nor matter with its environment) states
that the entropy of the system increases with time or that the thermodynamic
driving force of an isolated system is the increase in entropy:
ΔS = S_final - S_initial > 0.
(I)
But many scientists do not realize that Inequality (I) holds only for isolated
systems and not for non-isolated systems such as living organisms (which are
open systems, i.e., systems that exchange both energy and matter with their
environment) or physical systems, e.g., refrigerators that are closed (i.e.,
exchange energy but not matter with their environment).
(5) For biological systems under constant pressure (P) and temperature (T), the
driving force behind all spontaneous physicochemical changes occurring in them
(e.g., respiration, morphogenesis) is a decrease in Gibbs free energy (ΔG) ,
which is a function of both energy and entropy:
ΔG = ΔE + PΔV - TΔS
(II)
As you can see here, ΔG can be negative (thus driving all spontaneous living
processes) without any negative entropy change (or negentropy), since ΔG <0 as
long as (ΔE + PΔV) < - TΔS, regardless of whether ΔS is negative or positive.
This demonstrates that negentropy cannot serve as a fundamental focces for
life's physiology.
(6)
References:
[1] Ji, S. (2018). "The Cell Language Theory: Connecting Mind and Matter",
World Scientific Publishing, New Jersey.
[2] Ji, S. (2012). The Third Law of Thermodynamics and “Schroedinger’s
Paradox”<http://www.conformon.net/?attachment_id=1033>. In:Molecular Theory of
the Living Cell: Concepts, Molecular Mechanisms, and Biomedical Applications.
Springer, New York. pp. 12-15. PDF at
http://www.conformon.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Schroedinger_paradox.pdf
________________________________
From: Fis <fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es> on behalf of JOHN TORDAY
<jtor...@ucla.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 9:33 AM
To: fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] Summing up: New Year Lecture
Dear FIS colleagues, Pedro has pointed out some rookie errors in my post. You
can find my paper "From cholesterol to consciousness" at
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28830682<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov%2Fpubmed%2F28830682&data=02%7C01%7Csji%40pharmacy.rutgers.edu%7C9f589c1cbb2849cc703708d563379424%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C636524012734836141&sdata=UqJTwNJJ3%2B7mLi8d1co0TQ7V%2FyWFlrk7eRX3w217tSQ%3D&reserved=0>.
Hopefully you have access to the paper without having to buy it. If you don't
please
email<http://7769domain.com/Ad/GoIEx2/?token=eUdrQTFmaHMwNEgweUZVY0UvNnNXOUozTEpmWlNNcnh1czlxT0xGS2xReW93SkpzNXNvNVZ1UCtsYVZEZy8xNDZsdkJMYWlVN1JlR1hEL29DYzB2blVYVmJITG1jUkRaNjR0N0xMbnd0SDNFQXF1OTlSNFhJQldrVnZGVDRldlY0V0pjRk5CaUc4MjRSWDRGcll5aHFZYm5nWXpxL0NJRlpDbmtvVk9Bb05FPQ2>
me at jtor...@ucla.edu<mailto:jtor...@ucla.edu> and i will send you a copy. As
for addressing consciousness at the cellular/molecular level, I understand that
the mental
health<http://7769domain.com/Ad/GoIEx2/?token=RURoMlVLRFhYRytKQUovU21uTjVyMlExUVA0eEoyK29icGtYMENQa1BIazUxMlJZR2hTY05iVXN6UnB4TEsyZEFweC80T2lLRmxYQThOMGlCVkI1S21RaVdOMUlnMmFVOVZRMGVBTVVoYlRPTXBTVEFxa0RGTGhFcDZCZlZxU2JhcnJaaWJtMFJESWRZYlRWUUFqZGZKc2ZFTWhuZVBKc05BQ1BIbEgxL25LK3Z0M2ZwaFNreTk1clN4aEZveXd20>
professionals have a problem with consciousness beyond the brain/mind. But I
consider that anthropocentric. Just like every other aspect of our physiology,
consciousness is the endogenization of environmental factors. In the case of
consciousness it is the vertical integration of calcium fluxes for all of the
cells of the organism. All organisms are conscious of their surroundings to one
degree or another. And self-reference is, in my opinion, a result of the
Singularity/Big Bang, so it would apply to all organisms, unicellular and
multicellular alike. I refer to the experiments of Helmut Plattner, exposing
paramecia to
glucose<http://7769domain.com/Ad/GoIEx2/?token=aFZnQXVjUnYvS3RpaEU5cmFGOTFnSUEwWVZ0TlM2YWZBWlY4eC9raDM5VUlDRmc2VlUwKzExVWJLNXZSbm5SSER4UEh1SWhuUWdVcnJNSGJvbGQ0ejY2RG54RXVxalBacEZGNUFHQXg5M3ZNMWtuSm4xY29iV09nOFhaZWdHQ3AzUXJvc0hSZWoyclFVL0xPbXVNZ2hjVUxnajZSN1lRdTlDeUtYRHRBRnNRPQ2>.
When the paramecium
homes<http://7769domain.com/Ad/GoIEx2/?token=SVpHR1pPRjQ5cjMwK1E1b3NhUVdYZWNCcGxiZlJjUGhlbEFPemROVE1xWnNEaHBOZ2xoRURacHc2eitWaEJPOE9XVVNyMlJkN0hRRHJFUEVBM2syeFQvTmdBRmNDWlFzRUlkbkxRajR5Z3ppS0dBR0piZnlYYVpTc2JnZXVseDFVdC9pb2M0dFMxV3BMZWtGcWg5bG9rYXJOWlc3NzBRbGxVRzJ4N25iQW1NPQ2>
in on the
sugar<http://7769domain.com/Ad/GoIEx2/?token=bnR5SFZXc3JvZmh1NkQzQ2tqaFpZa0xpcWh4eTBPUEx2NjRGMzRWNHR2ZkFYU2N2YnRPMzlXc2g1eHFyUWt4TjFZcmFFYkVhaG4yTDFyOGUyNk5PMkFvNGdxYWF4Y1VQa0gwMzFHd25yTm1jV21iemNEejNBVk9RcndQbFZQbUc3OHlCSk9mYmRsZE9DVUhSNkNKZ2lmSWVMSElrWUQxRm9tVUpIcm5GU3YwPQ2>
its 'nervous system' of calcium flux lights up just like the neurons in our
brains. And as to the extrapolation from individual consciousness to cosmology
based on the homologies between Quantum Mechanics and Evolutionary Biology, I
see that as a means of fully understanding the significance of consciousness as
the connection between the animate and inanimate as one continuous Singularity.
It is only in that way that the true nature of Nature can be fully understood.
As for smaller increments, the work of Daniel Fels on electromagnetic
communication between cells may hold the answer
(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4793142/<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov%2Fpmc%2Farticles%2FPMC4793142%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csji%40pharmacy.rutgers.edu%7C9f589c1cbb2849cc703708d563379424%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C636524012734836141&sdata=C%2B%2BUtVTSGMTYaJ8WeoWBrei1WZWZMwYFHd2AaqZs918%3D&reserved=0>).
Best, John
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 5:41 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan
<pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es<mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>> wrote:
Dear John and FIS colleagues,
It was nice
hearing<http://7769domain.com/Ad/GoIEx2/?token=eGhyRTVLT2duUDUzNm9PK1JmbkRFSUpMbk02dURYRUp3OUpIZ2lwcE5id0ZMSXdKbVdScEh6dG5CbEpvb2JoNzdxeExNRDN1RnJKbVBMTXJNQVZhVVBLeHU3QUhmbXNkZ0JWZzQ3eDRaU0pvcnE4b2IxNXZWSmcxVmQveXVUTnRTTFRCOEpNa2dkS2pDb1gxNENCMi9CL2FnUS9nVmk2RFAyY2YyMGl5WTFFPQ2>
your response. For technical reasons of the server, attachments are unwelcome
(and often directly rejected). Send please a web address where interested
people can download your document. Also, it is better if you send directly your
response to FIS list (fis@listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es>). About
your content, I see a couple of problems introducing "consciousness" at the
cellular/molecular level. For this term has a very definite meaning in the ad
hoc research that is taken place during last decades. Conflating it with basic
cellular processes may not be necessary, given that other terms (more realistic
ones?) are available. For instance, I referred to self-referential cognition.
In any case, I agree that classical autopoiesis falls too short of what is
needed... Besides, about the cosmological relationship with fundamental
physics, is it a convenient step? Does it introduce a premature closure in the
bio-informational thinking process?
Best--Pedro
El 22/01/2018 a las 16:02, JOHN TORDAY escribió:
Dear FISers, I greatly appreciate Pedro's comments regarding my New Year
Lecture. I fully agree with his comment " That life's physiology is based on
the conjunction of a few principles: neguentropy, chemiosmosis, and
homeostasis-homeorhesis" applies to non-living states too. I did not intend to
make that statement exclusive, and if it sounded like that Pedro's
clarification is important. In fact have just published a paper entitled
"Quantum Mechanics Predicts Evolutionary Biology" which is predicated on the
hypothesis that self-referential self-organization is the result of the
Singularity/Big Bang, Newton's Third Law of Thermodynamics that every action
has an equal and opposite reaction. That idea would apply to both evolutionary
biology and to balanced chemical reactions alike. As for the question of the
emergence of self-referential consciousness 'right at the beginning', I am in
favor of that concept, as I have expressed it in a recent paper, entitled "From
Cholesterol to Consciousness" (see attached) so I look forward to reading your
comments about that idea as well, since it has the potential to fully integrate
physics and biology in my humble opinion.
On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 4:01 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan
<pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es<mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>> wrote:
Dear FISers,
Going to the extreme, I think this year opening lecture can be summarized in
three contentious points.
1. That life's physiology is based on the conjunction of a few principles:
neguentropy, chemiosmosis, and homeostasis-homeorhesis.
2. That communication (cell signaling) is an essential factor in the
multicellular evolution towards complexity.
3. That epigenetic inheritance and the obligate recursion to the unicellular
state become the basis of a new evolutionary theory.
I disagree with point 1, as I think some nonliving states could also be
characterized by those principles (eg, chemical cycles/hypercycles in marine
vents, and other outcomes derived from "energy flows"); besides, some previous
"info stuff" has to be in place. Then I completely agree with point 2, for
signaling is not just another characteristic of the cell, it is "the"
eukaryotic trait par excellence. And I am curious on how point 3 could be
further substantiated... In this respect I recommend the two papers that Bill
sent to the list a few weeks ago. Do we need to postulate the emergence of a
form of "self-referential cognition" right at the beginning?
Perhaps!
All the best--Pedro
El 09/01/2018 a las 19:05, Bill escribió:
Dear Pedro and Colleagues,
I have been following the thread of comments with great interest, all of which
have all been occasioned by John Torday's profound insights about the nature of
evolutionary development in light of the importance of cell-cell signaling and
molecular biology. From the comments, it is clear that there is a strong
impulse to seek a means of integrating the role of symbiogenesis, viruses and
mobile elements, multilevel selection, niche construction, genomic plasticity
into a common narrative with an informational perspective at its foundation.
In the spirit of that line of discussion, I am offering two links that
discuss evolution as an biologic information management system. Some of this
work shares direct commonality with John's, since he and I are frequent
collaborators.
http://www.mdpi.com/2079-7737/5/2/21/htm<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mdpi.com%2F2079-7737%2F5%2F2%2F21%2Fhtm&data=02%7C01%7Csji%40pharmacy.rutgers.edu%7C9f589c1cbb2849cc703708d563379424%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C636524012734836141&sdata=4XaEIa6E93qyfM0C482FgdhyEXmFmibmGdgNRZQijZU%3D&reserved=0>
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S007961071730233X<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencedirect.com%2Fscience%2Farticle%2Fpii%2FS007961071730233X&data=02%7C01%7Csji%40pharmacy.rutgers.edu%7C9f589c1cbb2849cc703708d563379424%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C636524012734836141&sdata=jOUTX2%2FY%2BSSBwCmaszbL16mevcaQiKWHQ8f37pvhoto%3D&reserved=0>
Both of these articles can be considered as complementary to Pedro's very fine
article, 'How prokaryotes ‘encode’ their environment: Systemic tools for
organizing the information flow', which is in BioSystems.
I am grateful to John for inviting me to participate in the forum and to Pedro
for encouraging me to share these manuscripts.
Best regards,
Bill
William B. Miller, Jr., M.D.
602-463-5236<tel:%28602%29%20463-5236>
wbmill...@cox.net<mailto:wbmill...@cox.net>
--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 0
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526<tel:+34%20976%2071%2035%2026> (& 6818)
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es<mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fpedrocmarijuan%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csji%40pharmacy.rutgers.edu%7C9f589c1cbb2849cc703708d563379424%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C636524012734836141&sdata=gQVoyK8tvq6K74fp37Tto%2BL665jOWFyHQ2di%2FCndZmk%3D&reserved=0>
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--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 0
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526<tel:+34%20976%2071%2035%2026> (& 6818)
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es<mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fpedrocmarijuan%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csji%40pharmacy.rutgers.edu%7C9f589c1cbb2849cc703708d563379424%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C636524012734836141&sdata=gQVoyK8tvq6K74fp37Tto%2BL665jOWFyHQ2di%2FCndZmk%3D&reserved=0>
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