Phil, Thanks for the follow up. As Dr. Lissaman says in a subsequent post, that clip by itself may say nothing, but it's only an indication of the type of formations I was referring to, namely a complete vee formation without flapping that I observed (while gliding, and in relatively stationery positions - ie. not moving across the sky at high speed), but not shown in that short video. The "phase change" I referred to would have involved several frigate birds in the formation like the two shown next to each other in the video.
By the way, I would say that there may be forms of coupling that go on when two lions on the savannah walk side-by-side. For example their gaits may be synchronized or phase-locked. It would be interesting to see what emergent patterns might arise if you put one hundred globally coupled in that fashion, side-by-side and set them all walking. My thought on the leadership question is that the frigatebirds wouldn't undergo a "phase change" unless there was some energy reduction benefit for them to do so. This would be an evolutionary development and in my mind would apply across species. But as you or someone pointed out, there are ways to confirm that, as I certainly can't state that as a fact. There may be elements of leadership involved, but in my mind any emergent formations are more likely to result from local physical rules, although I can imagine some emergent patterns could arise from a combination of leadership and local physical rules, and there probably are plenty of examples of that. In terms of "physically feeling the vee formation effect", I would argue that they can certainly feel the reduction in energy output required in the most efficient positions, and perhaps are aware of the positions of other birds in their field of view and perhaps have seen other Vees off in the distance, but they end up in their formations because they learned, originally by accident at some stage in their evolutionary development, that there was smaller energy output in certain positions. My point is they could very well not be aware of the global pattern they are forming, just as in a much larger flock, birds will only be aware of their immediate neighbours. >From my experience as a bicycle racer, it's obvious that cyclists can feel the physiological benefits of certain formations, but in a large peloton, the cyclists may easily not be aware of certain pattern formations, which become observable only from the air and upon a closer analysis of their global movements. I agree that we are largely guessing when determining the underlying mechanisms for certain behaviours, but if we can find similar behaviours among different groups, and can identify mechanisms underlying one group, then it is some evidence similar mechanisms apply to the other groups. Not proof obviously, but it is *some* evidence, and it is certainly cause for closer investigation for the curious minded. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Henshaw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'" <friam@redfish.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 4:55 AM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] frigatebirds - short video That video is very nice for putting it into context. There's an appearance, for that 10 seconds, that one pair are flying together in locked position and another is in the group mixing positions. Is that what you first meant by the first two parts of "often hover and glide for several minutes at a time without flapping and that they tend to glide in disordered configurations until they spontaneously undergo a phase change"? I was also hoping I could get you to clarify a comment you made about my suggestion that some communities might have more 'leadership' (i.e. social structure). You said "As we all know, self-organized phenomena arise without leaders to guide the emergent patterns - I can't think of why it would be any different for frigatebirds." I would be surprised if you thought self-organization in sand piles and communities of intelligent species happened the same way. Peter described how the birds would be able to physically feel the 'V' formation effect, and I was essentially suggesting that some communities may have stronger group awareness into which that would fit. For much of the instrumental mechanisms of natural system behaviors like these we're left wildly guessing, of course. I just try to balance the shakiness of my foundations for it with my confidence in the conclusions, always looking for the strong foundation of the behavior's particular growth dynamic as an anchor. Phil Henshaw ¸¸¸¸.·´ ¯ `·.¸¸¸¸ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 680 Ft. Washington Ave NY NY 10040 tel: 212-795-4844 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] explorations: www.synapse9.com > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hugh Trenchard > Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 1:15 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] frigatebirds - short video > > > http://ibc.hbw.com/ibc/phtml/votacio.phtml?idVideo=3621&tipus=1 > > Here is a link to a short video which provides a small inkling of the > "drafting" behaviour or frigatebirds. It isn't a long enough > video to know > if the alignment there was more than accidental, nor does it > show more than > two in alignment, but it's a start. Thanks for the suggestion about > contacting bird-watchers in frigatebird territory for a > work-around, I'll > look into it. > > Hugh > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Phil Henshaw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'" > <friam@redfish.com> > Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 9:28 PM > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] observations of complex phenomena while in Mexico > > > I'll be glad to see what further patterns you find. Just to > clarify, my suggestion was not just that the two colonies > were different, but that the variation in local colony > behavior might be as great as the > variation in local environments where colonies are found. > If you were > to make observations randomly across the range of the species > you'd get a better sense of what behaviors are universal and > what are local. What you'd want is a work-around, of course, > that would be a little less work. Perhaps you could try > getting a list of bird watchers in the frigatebird range and > randomly calling them to see what they have to say. > > As to the generality of a "drafting principle", there is at > least one major example of it I've given a good bit of > study, the formation and evolution of air currents. If you > want an example of the vast creativity of local physical > processes you might do well to give them a > little look. Do all the modeling you like and none of it > will produce > the degree of intricate and inventive complexity you find in > the pathway negotiations taking place around any even mildly > warm body like, for example, the one sitting in front of your > computer screen right now! > > > Phil Henshaw ¸¸¸¸.·´ ¯ `·.¸¸¸¸ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > 680 Ft. Washington Ave > NY NY 10040 > tel: 212-795-4844 > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > explorations: www.synapse9.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > > Behalf Of Hugh Trenchard > > Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 7:16 PM > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] observations of complex phenomena > while in Mexico > > > > > > Thanks for all your comments. Next time I'm in Mexico, I will > > definitely do my best to get some video footage. My > recollection of > > what I saw in October > > 2005 in Mazatlan is that the various yaws and compensations > > were easy to > > see, as you say. I can't remember how long the formations > > were stable - > > perhaps generally less than a minute, before the formation > > would break down > > (but I'm really just guessing) - but they were long enough > to see the > > dynamics involved. And after the formations broke down, they > > would often > > reform again fairly soon. > > > > Regarding Phil's comment that the Mazatlan colonies were > possibly just > > different from the Cancun colonies I will need to investigate that. > > (Frank - I was in Cancun over Christmas, by the way and the > > migration habits > > might be a factor involved in when and why they engage in vee > > formation - > > something else to investigate). It seems, though, it is > > unlikely that a > > single colony in Mazatlan would have developed the vee > > formation capacity > > completely independently of a colony in Cancun, especially > > when the distance > > between them is not really that great when we think in terms of bird > > migratory habits. So far, I still think the wind conditions > > are more likely > > what prevented vee formation in Cancun, but of course I will > > need a bit more > > evidence to support that. > > > > Also, Phil, I would argue that strong leadership is not a factor in > > vee formations. As we all know, self-organized phenomena arise > > without leaders > > to guide the emergent patterns - I can't think of why it > would be any > > different for frigatebirds. The formations must self-organize > > from some > > principle of interaction - in the case of organisms that save > > energy by > > drafting, it is the coupling between them that occurs because > > there is a > > physiological or energetic advantage to their coupling (ie. to their > > drafting). > > > > It could be that frigatebird vee formations are simply derived from > > their inherent natural behaviours and have no basis in any > > underlying physical > > principles, but given the advantages conferred upon other > > types of organisms > > that engage in drafting dynamics and formations, it seems > > reasonable to ask > > if there is there is a physical principle underlying the formations. > > > > Nonetheless, what this all suggests to me that it is an > area ripe for > > further study, and that very little work has been done to establish > > the universality of the "drafting principle" as I am calling it. > > I actually > > think it applies in a lot of other situations as well, from > > trail formation > > to aspects of economics, but that's little more than a gut > > feeling at this > > point. But I suppose, at the very least, until I can get > > some good footage > > of frigatebird formations and some wind speed measurements, > > we can only > > speculate as to what is happening with them. > > > > I'm not sure when I'll be in Mexico next, but I'll keep everyone > > posted as to what I see. If anyone else is going, please > keep an eye > > out for the > > frigatebirds! Pelicans also fly in vees too, but they are > > more like geese, > > I think - they fly past at fairly high speed. > > > > On the note about the decline of traveling geese, I really can't > > speculate. I live on the west coast of Canada in British > Columbia and > > I still see vee > > formations going in all directions. But perhaps global > > warming is a factor > > in the distances they need to fly now - maybe they can stay > > farther north > > all year round. > > > > Hugh Trenchard > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
