epilogue : http://www.guernicamag.com/blog/2652/noam_chomsky_my_reaction_to_os/
(- no fake quotes here!) On Sat, May 7, 2011 at 8:30 AM, Vladimyr Burachynsky <vbur...@shaw.ca>wrote: > I urge the angry to ask why. Too often storming away from a table is > exactly why we never break ground. > > As to the topic of Complexity , this is one component you never inquired > of, Why do sensible people become IDIOTS. How does society create idiots out > of men? > > That was my reason to join long ago. The fact that IDIOTS are convinced > that they are correct Fascinates me. > > How can any of us trust the words coming out of our mouths, if we were to > discover we have been blindly lead by a Narrative into a cul de sac of > Idiocy. > > > > > > The story of binLaden was writen long ago Tolstoy. The short story, Hadji > Murat, describes much of the same atmosphere. > > The killing was easy , the understanding is difficult. > > > > It takes no great skill to kill, any brute can do it, it is a much greater > challenge to keep something alive. > > > > How do we model stupifaction of real people? > > > > Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky PhD > > > > > > vbur...@shaw.ca > > > > > > > > 120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd. > > Winnipeg,Manitoba, R2J3R2 > > Canada > > (204) 2548321 Land > > (204) 8016064 Cell > > > > > > > > *From:* friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On > Behalf Of *Douglas Roberts > *Sent:* May-06-11 7:37 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Terrorosity and it's Fruits > > > > Salaam Mohammed, > > > > Speaking as an American, I'm afraid that I can assert with a fair degree of > accuracy that percentage-wise, very few Americans are aware of the > historical/current events vis-a-vis US interactions with > mid-eastern political entities that you so accurately denote below. For > reasons that I fail to comprehend, we have truly become a nation of idiots. > Nearly as discouraging, if I may suggest, is the clear emergence of > multiple nations of Islamic idiots which seem to comprise the majority of > mid eastern countries these days. Perhaps the real issue here is that we are > a planet of idiots. > > > > Several evolutions later the answer to all of this become apparent, I'm > sure, if biological life is still possible on this planet then. > > > > Best, > > > > --Doug > > On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 5:33 PM, Mohammed El-Beltagy <moham...@computer.org> > wrote: > > Thanks Steve and Peggy, you give me more praise than I deserve. > > I naturally see terrorism as abhorrent and I regret that Russel read > my few lines as an attempt to be an apologists for those who attack > the US and Israel. I am against any form of violence being exercised > against any human being, and that also happens to includes > Palestinians, Iraqis, and Afghans. > > I just wonder how many Americans aware of the following: > 1. The US supported and trained Bin Laden and a host of other groups > with unsavory ideologies during the cold war. > 2. The US supported and continues to support dictators in the middle > east. They have been propping up Mubark for 30 years. > 3. Official civilian deaths in Iraq are now in excess of 100K. Many > Iraqi refuges in Cairo tell me that life was MUCH better under > Saddam!!! > 4. The US actively supports Saudi Arabia and does not seem to mind > their proselytizing Wahhabism in the middle east and South East Asia. > That ideology justifies and absolute rule of the Saudi Royal > family.... hence cheep oil.. but also the side effect of terrorism. > > I agree with Peggy that it would be wrong to lay the blame fully on > any one country (I would also add religion,and race). But, to say that > it is down to some group of human beings who are simply evil and > hateful is equally mindless. They US played a significant part in this > monster creation. To my mind, the processes of monster creation is > still active. That worries me. That must stop. > > Cheers, > > Mohammed > > > On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 10:28 PM, Steve Smith <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote: > > Mohammed - > > > > I want to second Peggy's thanks for your thoughts and would like to add > the > > following to hers: > > > > I agree with Peggy on most points. Terrorism is always horrific (it is > > designed to be so) and we should seek to avoid provoking it and prevent > it's > > occurrence and mitigate it's effects as best we can. The apprehension > (by > > death) of Osama bin Laden was perhaps a neccesary act but as your poem > (and > > Peggy's response) suggests, we should use this moment to reflect on our > own > > part in having created the monster we finally destroyed, and in how we > are > > surely continuing to create the conditions that lead to all this in the > > first place. > > > > Where I might diverge from Peggy's description is in the implication that > we > > are "becoming" more predatory. I do believe that in our greed and fear > we > > continue to develop more *leverage* for ourselves, economic, military, > even > > popular culture. And thereby we become more *capable predators* than > > ever. But I think the fundamental problem is that we have always been > > predatory... > > > > By *we*, I am not sure if I mean "the United States of America", "the > West", > > "Industrialized Nations", "All Nations", "all of Humanity" even > "Primates" > > or "Sentient Creatures" or what... certainly the last US administration > > was more hawkish and empire driven than we have seen in a while and > arguably > > it was in anticipation and in reaction to that more predatory posture > that > > the 9/11 attacks happened, but Bush and Co. were standing on the > shoulders > > of giants. They did not invent predation, they merely amped it up, > cashed > > in on it. As sick as it sounds, they may have done us a favor by > exposing > > our own nature to us in such a blunt manner. > > > > The US is a product of the Imperial Powers in Europe during the age of > > discovery, colonization and empire. With the whole north American > > continent (and it's indigenous peoples) to conquer, and several european > > powers (Britain, Spain, France) to try to expel, we did not focus on the > > rest of the world so much until the 20th century, with WWI and WWII > giving > > us the excuse or the reason to establish a global military and industrial > > presence. The cold war was either a continuation or a result of that. > > > > The industrialized world's thirst for petroleum caused us to meddle a > great > > deal in the middle east and north Africa... and we, who became the > > mightiest economic and military power amongst the industrialized world, > > became dominant players in that meddling. Our predatory behaviour in > this > > regard is more like that of the Hudson Bay Company or the East India > Company > > than the conquistadors of Spain in the new world gathering gold and souls > or > > the European Crusaders retaking their "holy lands". But it is predatory > > nonetheless, and every one of us depends on that predation for our high > > standard of living. > > > > We have allowed, no encouraged, and I fear even supported overtly and > > covertly via our intelligence and military resources, the expansion of a > > global network of industries and businesses as their own empire. > Petroleum > > is the obvious commodity, but we have done the same with other natural > > resources (minerals, precious metals and gems, timber, even agriculture > and > > human labor). > > > > What can we do? Can the Lion lay down with the Lamb? Is there in fact a > > Lamb, or just Cats of many sizes and stripe? My world is split into two > > very distinct camps: 1) Those who believe it is our right, our destiny, > a > > necessity to be not just predators, but at the pinnacle of the predatory > > chain; and 2) those who have no overt wish to be a predator nor to > suffer > > predation in their name but seem unaware of their place, their role in > the > > chain. > > > > What I don't see enough of is the latter group understanding that they > (WE) > > directly benefit (and suffer) from that predation and it is incumbent on > us > > to find better ways of living in this world. I was a vegetarian for 17 > > years roughly because I did not wish to be part of the system of animal > > cruelty and abuse that our meat industry had become (was by it's very > > nature?). I was raised among simple people who mostly ate meat from > animals > > that they hunted or raised and slaughtered themselves. Those cruel > > realities were something I accepted but never became numb to, which made > the > > awareness of the meat industry that much more poignant. If killing, > > gutting, dismembering and then eating an animal seems cruel, then doesn't > > hiring that out to people who have become so numbed to the process (or > were > > self-selected for that numbness or even morbid fascination) that they > don't > > notice nor care about the suffering, compound the cruelty? I found few > > amongst my vegetarian and non-vegetarian friends who understood my > stance. > > To most of the former, any killing of an animal was unthinkable (though > cute > > ones even moreso than the ugly), and to most of the latter, it was a > simple > > matter of "don't-ask, don't tell"... with only a few seeming to revel in > the > > predation directly and virtually none looking at the situation as a > > "system". > > > > And I find our global situation today to be quite similar... those who > revel > > in predation in the world, and those who prefer to hire it out and whine > > when they accidentally notice what they've hired out. When we go all > "shock > > and awe" on a relatively innocent population or we destroy whole > ecosystems > > with a "minor" error in judgement or execution of our petroleum > extraction > > and transport. We know who to hate when they get caught red handed, but > > meanwhile we buy their products, we take profits from investing in their > > "corporations" or "commodities", and we enjoy the fruits of their > predation > > but don't think much past that, or know what else to do. > > > > Me too. Sadly, me too. I have my "tricks for reducing my carbon > > footprint", of "organic, macrobiotic consumption", etc. and I try to > speak > > out against the most egregious acts of my leaders and the > > military-industrial complex which I support through my taxes and my > > consumerism... but I don't really do much to change the fundamental > > problems. I may worry and I may posture but mostly I just continue to > help > > feed the dysfunctional feedback loop. > > > > I know this may sound like self-flagellation and perhaps it is, but it is > > these pivotal moments of reflection (9/12/2001 or this week for example) > are > > the times when we have a chance to look a little deeper into the mirrors > > held up by such events. > > > > I also have hope that more and more awareness is rising amongst us, > > including those who might be in a position to make important changes and > > that the rest of us are ready to follow or to pitch in as needed if a > better > > way is found/discovered/recognized/created, if another basin of > attraction > > can be tumbled into. Is there a kinder, gentler basin or attraction to > > wander in than the predatory one we inhabit now? The middle east seems > to > > be in just such a bifurcation moment where many are finally able to pitch > in > > or at least cooperate with the changes and maybe find new stable, > > life-affirming orbits. They had to be ready for it for it to happen and > to > > play along. Are we? > > > > > > Thanks again to Mohammed for his poem and Peggy's response and to all the > > rest here who are using this moment to reflect rather than react, and > maybe > > to look for hopeful alternatives to our clearly hopeless chasing of our > own > > tails in the exploitative, consumerist cycles we are in. > > > > - Steve > > > > In response to Mohammed Beltagy's few lines of poetry related to Osama > Bin > > Laden's death: > > Thank you for submitting those. > > > > Though this situation is/was one fraught with fear, anger, retaliation, > and, > > as you mention, hatred, we as a country responded in such a way that had > me > > choking a bit on the size of the response and lack of control of the > > response, and also our unwillingness, our continued unwillingness to face > > some of the responsibility for the anger and hatred that engendered the > > original 9/11 attack. And though I do not believe that terrorist attacks > of > > that nature are necessarily the result of any nation's specific actions > -- > > and are more often an irrational result of an acumulation of anger, > hatred > > for a sumtotal of causes and events over a long history, still, it is > always > > wise to take a look at one's own actions to see how they might have > elicited > > any tiny part of an action. We have become a country that seems to use > war, > > rather than alternative actions, as a way to convince ourselves we are > > addressing our problems. I find our own international actions have become > > extremely warlike and predatorial in nature, rather than thoughtful, > > scientific responses to overwhelming environmental and resource problems. > > And though I do not condone or support in any way a terrorist action, I > > think we need to face that we too are looked on, often, as predatorial, > > warring peoples by some other countries, and this does not help our > > international presence, or our own national pocketbooks/budget, or even > help > > us move toward good answers to international problems. > > > > so thanks. > > Peggy Miller > > > > > > > > -- > > Peggy Miller, owner/OEO > > Highland Winds > > wix.com/peggymiller/highlandwinds > > Shop is at 1520 S. 7th St. W. (Just west of Russell) > > Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings > > 406-541-7577 (home/office/shop) > > Shop Hours: Wed-Thurs 3-7 pm > > Fri-Sat: 8:30-12:30 am > > > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > -- > http://perfectionatic.blogspot.com/ > http://twitter.com/#!/perfectionatic > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
