Steve writes:
<<Was Bernie - before - Clinton ever on the table for the FriAM congregation? Did anyone ever give a nod to Jill and the Greens or Gary and the Libs (sounds like rock group names, eh?) or even McMullen and his ???s ? Or is it truly a pro-Clinton cabal?>> I thought the democrats had two decent candidates, at least on technical grounds. I was rooting for Bernie during the primaries, although I don't really buy that the donor class and super pacs are so terrible. Jeb Bush had a big donor base and so did Clinton. It didn't help. People that put down $$$ are at least people putting their money where their mouth is -- in contrast to those that get their emotions all spun up with little in the way of facts to ground their preferences. The stabilizing force of all that money and organization seems pretty reassuring right now. I don't think the micro-candidates will work. First of all, if they had the chops to be professional politicians, they could navigate the two party system and move up through the ranks. Ranked-choice voting is fine by itself, but at some point you're not really going to get what you want anyway: It's a high dimensional set of preferences getting projected down to just a few. If there are more than two choices then the winner could get less than 30% of the vote. That's not much of a mandate. Instead of a divided America (2 parts) you get a fragmented America (many parts). Marcus ________________________________ From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of Steven A Smith <sasm...@swcp.com> Sent: Monday, December 5, 2016 8:28:37 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Divided America Frank - I was not admonishing you, but DO admit that I assumed you were speaking to the "congregation at large" not merely the attendees at "the Mother Church"... As you know I DO occasionally attend High Mass at the Fri(day)AM with ritual consumption of the blood of Complexity Yak (aka Coffee)... but not often nor in a while. That said, I am curious if you believe that the physical attendees at FriAM services are in fact pro-Clinton or merely anti-Trump or anti-Republican? Was Bernie - before - Clinton ever on the table for the FriAM congregation? Did anyone ever give a nod to Jill and the Greens or Gary and the Libs (sounds like rock group names, eh?) or even McMullen and his ???s ? Or is it truly a pro-Clinton cabal? Nick and DaveW - I think I believe in "Consensus building through dialog" though perhaps do want to emphasize "building" with an understanding that it is a task that has no completion date. I think (despite my implications of being confrontational with pro-Trumpers) that there is plenty of fertile ground left after busting their chops to then discuss what we all have in common, what we all seek, what the commons looks like and how to cultivate, repair, and preserve it for the next 7 generations. - Steve On 12/4/16 9:40 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: Thanks, Steve. I should have been explicit that I was thinking of the dozen or more people who sit around the table on Friday mornings when I said Friam was overwhelmingly pro Clinton. I sometimes forget about the couple hundred(?) who read the list but may not even live in Santa Fe. I apologize. Frank Frank Wimberly Phone (505) 670-9918 On Dec 4, 2016 9:31 PM, "Steven A Smith" <sasm...@swcp.com<mailto:sasm...@swcp.com>> wrote: Frank - I like Jochen's contrast (literal/serious vs serious/literal) and was mildly shocked he would ask the question so boldly here. I don't mind, but have felt that everyone was avoiding any discussion outside of my lame attempts to get a discussion about the election framed within the more theoretical context of social choice theory and Arrow's algorithm, etc. I do know we have had some modest right-wing voices here in the past, I haven't heard them in a while, maybe they were driven away or underground? I understand that this forum is not intended to be overtly political but agree with your assessment that we are probably collectively much bluer than red. I'm surprised we don't have a more vocal/overt Green tinge? Maybe it is the age/academic dimensions of our collective feature space? I think at least Glen and I represent something "completely different" (from the group and from one another). I couldn't be characterized as pro-Clinton except by the most abstract measures. Or more to the point because I was (and am) staunchly anti-Trump/Republican. I see that while I was composing this (over the course of a day) that DaveW weighted in with his own non-red/blue tribute. I do so love to bust the chops of my pro-Trump friends by greeting them the first time after the election with something like: "I am SO relieved that we didn't elect another hawkish, elite, bourgeoisie Clinton!"; followed by a nice pregnant pause and then: "The only thing worse than that was having that narcissistic, xenophobic, misogynistic, loony 1% Trump, elected as the hero of the proletariat class!" and "he's YOUR boy, I'm going to ride you hard every time he *does* show those traits and depend on YOU to reign him in or throw him under a bus if/when/as he becomes truly dangerous to this country and the world". I don't know how things got so upside down/inside out, but I am very happy (proud) to hold a strong socially conscious perspective which in my opinion does not require big government (the old tax-n-spend liberal jab). It ain't the Republicans, the NeoCons, the Tea Party, the Birthers, the Alt.Right NOR the Democrats (NeoLibs?) nor the Libertarians. The Greens are as close to a formal, organized group as I can see. Bernie was at the very least "a good start" from my perspective. I like DaveW's suggestion of the possibility that this is a fertile ground for "consensus building via dialog"... but it IS a bit forebidding/boding with so many Trumpians *appearing* to demand that the anti-Trumpians "STFU" on th principle (in his OrangeNess's own words) that there was a "Landslide" in his favor. Just as there was nothing at all like a "mandate" for Herr Bush in 2000, there is NO landslide. That is simply Orwellian, bombastic rhetoric. So *I* do engage my "Trumpian" friends as best I can, though, the more informed/eloquent/thoughtful of them seem a bit embarassed at their "win"... as if they understand the curse "be careful what you ask for"! *I* asked for Hillary NOT to win (by a landslide anyway) and sure enough my prayers were granted... and I am in a WTF moment, myself. I voted for Jill/Green in spite of a raucous roar of "a vote for Jill is a vote for Trump!", trusting that this state was blue enough to keep Trump out of OUR electoral college seats. Given the context and the lesser of evils principles I would have voted Blue reluctantly to block Red, but was exquisitely thankful to have Green as an option. I don't know what color Gary is, some strange shade of purple? I support his basic platform of personal liberties but don't really care for anything pro-business any more. His strength in NM was also a good opportunity to vote Green... I'm sure he "spoiled" more Red votes than Blue ones. As for Jochen's original question: "Will Trump make America great again?"... geeze! I hope not! His vision of greatness is to be a "great bully" on the world stage. Whether it is military or economic or pop-culture leadership (dominance) he *might* bring us, I don't want that. I can see a few silver linings in the grey cloud that he is: 1. I'm not sure he (or his circle of crony-advisors) are competent enough to achieve what they seek. I think they will fail from a "reach exceeds grasp" error. But they will make big messes in the meantime. 2. I do think we were way overdue for a shakeup in our political parties/factions/lines-drawn... this represents that. He has either completely crashed the Republican party or confronted it to re-assemble with a radically new fundamental nature (or so I hope). I'm not sure what will happen with the Dems... Bernie's rally to "rebuild the Democratic party" seems like a bit too mild for me... I'd rather see the Greens fill their niche and absorb most of their momentum. 3. Things sometimes have to get worse before they get better. Maybe Trumps abrupt shift of all the cannonry and the below-decks freight to one side of the ship will wake us up and cause us to consider the implications of this new listing and take it seriously enough to try to adjust the full load, not just shift the superficial stuff around (aka deck chairs?). Friam was overwhelmingly pro Clinton and Santa Fe strongly pro Clinton. She won in New Mexico. I am sure I will be corrected if necessary. Frank ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
