Frank -
I was not admonishing you, but DO admit that I assumed you were speaking
to the "congregation at large" not merely the attendees at "the Mother
Church"... As you know I DO occasionally attend High Mass at the
Fri(day)AM with ritual consumption of the blood of Complexity Yak (aka
Coffee)... but not often nor in a while.
That said, I am curious if you believe that the physical attendees at
FriAM services are in fact pro-Clinton or merely anti-Trump or
anti-Republican? Was Bernie - before - Clinton ever on the table for
the FriAM congregation? Did anyone ever give a nod to Jill and the
Greens or Gary and the Libs (sounds like rock group names, eh?) or even
McMullen and his ???s ? Or is it truly a pro-Clinton cabal?
Nick and DaveW -
I think I believe in "Consensus building through dialog" though perhaps
do want to emphasize "building" with an understanding that it is a task
that has no completion date.
I think (despite my implications of being confrontational with
pro-Trumpers) that there is plenty of fertile ground left after busting
their chops to then discuss what we all have in common, what we all
seek, what the commons looks like and how to cultivate, repair, and
preserve it for the next 7 generations.
- Steve
On 12/4/16 9:40 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
Thanks, Steve. I should have been explicit that I was thinking of the
dozen or more people who sit around the table on Friday mornings when
I said Friam was overwhelmingly pro Clinton. I sometimes forget about
the couple hundred(?) who read the list but may not even live in Santa
Fe. I apologize.
Frank
Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918
On Dec 4, 2016 9:31 PM, "Steven A Smith" <sasm...@swcp.com
<mailto:sasm...@swcp.com>> wrote:
Frank -
I like Jochen's contrast (literal/serious vs serious/literal) and
was mildly shocked he would ask the question so boldly here. I
don't mind, but have felt that everyone was avoiding any
discussion outside of my lame attempts to get a discussion about
the election framed within the more theoretical context of social
choice theory and Arrow's algorithm, etc.
I do know we have had some modest right-wing voices here in the
past, I haven't heard them in a while, maybe they were driven away
or underground? I understand that this forum is not intended to
be overtly political but agree with your assessment that we are
probably collectively much bluer than red. I'm surprised we don't
have a more vocal/overt Green tinge? Maybe it is the age/academic
dimensions of our collective feature space?
I think at least Glen and I represent something "completely
different" (from the group and from one another). I couldn't be
characterized as pro-Clinton except by the most abstract
measures. Or more to the point because I was (and am) staunchly
anti-Trump/Republican. I see that while I was composing this
(over the course of a day) that DaveW weighted in with his own
non-red/blue tribute.
I do so love to bust the chops of my pro-Trump friends by greeting
them the first time after the election with something like: "I am
SO relieved that we didn't elect another /hawkish, elite,
bourgeoisie /Clinton!"; followed by a nice pregnant pause and
then: "The only thing worse than that was having that
/narcissistic, xenophobic, misogynistic, loony 1%/ Trump, elected
as the hero of the proletariat class!" and "he's YOUR boy, I'm
going to ride you hard every time he *does* show those traits and
depend on YOU to reign him in or throw him under a bus if/when/as
he becomes truly dangerous to this country and the world".
I don't know how things got so upside down/inside out, but I am
very happy (proud) to hold a strong socially conscious perspective
which in my opinion does not require big government (the old
tax-n-spend liberal jab). It ain't the Republicans, the NeoCons,
the Tea Party, the Birthers, the Alt.Right NOR the Democrats
(NeoLibs?) nor the Libertarians. The Greens are as close to a
formal, organized group as I can see. Bernie was at the very
least "a good start" from my perspective. I
like DaveW's suggestion of the possibility that this is a
fertile ground for "consensus building via dialog"... but it IS a
bit forebidding/boding with so many Trumpians *appearing* to
demand that the anti-Trumpians "STFU" on th principle (in his
OrangeNess's own words) that there was a "Landslide" in his
favor. Just as there was nothing at all like a "mandate" for
Herr Bush in 2000, there is NO landslide. That is simply
Orwellian, bombastic rhetoric. So *I* do engage my "Trumpian"
friends as best I can, though, the more
informed/eloquent/thoughtful of them seem a bit embarassed at
their "win"... as if they understand the curse "be careful what
you ask for"! *I* asked for Hillary NOT to win (by a landslide
anyway) and sure enough my prayers were granted... and I am in a
WTF moment, myself.
I voted for Jill/Green in spite of a raucous roar of "a vote for
Jill is a vote for Trump!", trusting that this state was blue
enough to keep Trump out of OUR electoral college seats. Given
the context and the lesser of evils principles I would have voted
Blue reluctantly to block Red, but was exquisitely thankful to
have Green as an option. I don't know what color Gary is, some
strange shade of purple? I support his basic platform of
personal liberties but don't really care for anything pro-business
any more. His strength in NM was also a good opportunity to vote
Green... I'm sure he "spoiled" more Red votes than Blue ones.
As for Jochen's original question: "Will Trump make America great
again?"... geeze! I hope not! His vision of greatness is to be a
"great bully" on the world stage. Whether it is military or
economic or pop-culture leadership (dominance) he *might* bring
us, I don't want that. I can see a few silver linings in the
grey cloud that he is:
1. I'm not sure he (or his circle of crony-advisors) are
competent enough to achieve what they seek. I think they will
fail from a "reach exceeds grasp" error. But they will make
big messes in the meantime.
2. I do think we were way overdue for a shakeup in our political
parties/factions/lines-drawn... this represents that. He has
either completely crashed the Republican party or confronted
it to re-assemble with a radically new fundamental nature (or
so I hope). I'm not sure what will happen with the Dems...
Bernie's rally to "rebuild the Democratic party" seems like a
bit too mild for me... I'd rather see the Greens fill their
niche and absorb most of their momentum.
3. Things sometimes have to get worse before they get better.
Maybe Trumps abrupt shift of all the cannonry and the
below-decks freight to one side of the ship will wake us up
and cause us to consider the implications of this new listing
and take it seriously enough to try to adjust the full load,
not just shift the superficial stuff around (aka deck chairs?).
Friam was overwhelmingly pro Clinton and Santa Fe strongly pro
Clinton. She won in New Mexico. I am sure I will be corrected
if necessary.
Frank
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