More reading https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3515378/
--- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Sun, Aug 15, 2021, 12:09 PM Steve Smith <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote: > To the extent that many of our individual conditions often described as > dis-ease are manifestations of a more > spiritual-social-emotional-psychological dis-ease, it shouldn't surprise us > that "woo" which addresses (at different levels, and different modes) the > latter dis-ease might relieve the symptoms. > > I don't think many argue these days that animal immune responses are > modulated significantly by the organism's level of stress, etc. The term > "Placebo" often gets a pretty negative connotation, yet I think most also > accept that when it works, it works and one would not want to remove "the > placebo effect" from someone's prevention, recovery or maintenance regimen. > > I am personally offended by the psuedoscientific presentation of lots of > "woo", but I see how invoking lasers and vibrational energies and long > concatenated latin names of compounds and concoctions can be very > comforting to those whose only understanding of "Science" is that it has > magical/mystical properties. > > This also, of course, allows the same people (or similar) to dismiss > anything labeled "Science" as and elitist charade designed to bamboozle > them into doing clearly dumb things like having "stuff" injected into them > (like bleach or perhaps something with a mercury compound)? > > From Roger's due diligence, I am left to believe that Ivermectin has never > been particularly validated for anything, though Nick's reference seems to > imply it might be useful against parasites. I understand > Hydroxychloroquine to have been used widely in developing (equatorial) > countries as an antiviral (in particular Malaria) but with widely varying > and harsh side-effects which in those contexts might be well worth the > risk. > > I'm interested to see the meta-narrative continue to evolve around > Science and Pseudoscience or some variation of that. It is easy do > dismiss one and embrace the other, and on the surface, that is valid, but > it feels to me as if there is something much deeper and more subtle and > perhaps more broadly important going on, especially if we are nearing the > twilight of the Anthropocene, going into a long-dark night of our own > making *with* various parts Science and Pseudoscience? > > > How about Reiki? > > > > Does Reiki Work? - The Atlantic > <https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/04/reiki-cant-possibly-work-so-why-does-it/606808/> > > > > *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> <friam-boun...@redfish.com> *On > Behalf Of *Roger Critchlow > *Sent:* Sunday, August 15, 2021 10:00 AM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > <friam@redfish.com> <friam@redfish.com> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope > > > > Oh, forgot to clearly identify the irony: ;-) > > > > Doing diligence on this crap is way exhausting. I am entirely in sympathy > with your dilemma. > > > > Even if ivermectin does nothing useful, it still may be a useful treatment > in situations where no other treatment is available. And fabricating > evidence of its efficacy would also be a comfort to the patients and the > medical staff in that situation. A placebo can be better than nothing, a > placebo with a bogus story behind it can be even better. > > > > -- rec -- > > > > -- rec -- > > > > On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 12:37 PM Roger Critchlow <r...@elf.org> wrote: > > Pieter -- > > > > I looked over the links you listed. > > > > They seem to claim that withdrawl of ivermectin caused the spike in Covid > cases in India, and also that administering ivermectin caused the end of > the spike in Covid cases. Both of these claims are sort of hard to > evaluate, since I don't see any evidence that anyone has ever distributed > ivermectin/doxycycline/zinc kits very widely, either before or after the > spike in infections. Constructing and delivering kits for 1.366 billion > people would have been quite an achievement for any economy. > > > > I followed the links to https://c19ivermectin.com/ and found the list of > ivermectin studies. The list presented currently claims 110 studies, 68 > peer reviewed, 64 involving control and treatment groups, but it's puffed > up with another 50 entries which are news clippings, press releases, > meta-analyses, reviews, and other miscellanea. > > > > I looked an early review article, > https://www.nature.com/articles/s41429-020-0336-z.pdf, though the pdf is > hosted at nature.com, it's from a different journal. > > > > The Journal of Antibiotics (2020) 73:593–602 > https://doi.org/10.1038/s41429-020-0336-z > Ivermectin: a systematic review from antiviral effects to COVID-19 > complementary regimen Fatemeh Heidary1 ● Reza Gharebaghi2,3 > 1 Head of Ophthalmology Division, Taleghani Hospital, Ahvaz Jundishapur > University of Medical Sciences, Ahvaz, Iran > 2 Kish International Campus, University of Tehran, Tehran, Iran > 3 International Virtual Ophthalmic Research Center (IVORC), Austin, TX, USA > Abstract > Ivermectin proposes many potentials effects to treat a range of diseases, > with its antimicrobial, antiviral, and anti-cancer properties as a wonder > drug. It is highly effective against many microorganisms including some > viruses. In this comprehensive systematic review, antiviral effects of > ivermectin are summarized including in vitro and in vivo studies over the > past 50 years. Several studies reported antiviral effects of ivermectin on > RNA viruses such as Zika, dengue, yellow fever, West Nile, Hendra, > Newcastle, Venezuelan equine encephalitis, chikungunya, Semliki Forest, > Sindbis, Avian influenza A, Porcine Reproductive and Respiratory Syndrome, > Human immunodeficiency virus type 1, and severe acute respiratory syndrome > coronavirus 2. Furthermore, there are some studies showing antiviral > effects of ivermectin against DNA viruses such as Equine herpes type 1, BK > polyomavirus, pseudorabies, porcine circovirus 2, and bovine herpesvirus 1. > Ivermmust beectin plays a role in several biological mechanisms, therefore > it could serve as a potential candidate in the treatment of a wide range of > viruses including COVID-19 as well as other types of positive-sense > single-stranded RNA viruses. In vivo studies of animal models revealed a > broad range of antiviral effects of ivermectin, however, clinical trials > are necessary to appraise the potential efficacy of ivermectin in clinical > setting > > > > The quick read is that ivermectin interferes with viral reproduction *in > vitro*, but fails to work *in vivo*, for all of these viruses. It's been > tried against every virus that's turned up in the last 50 years, had some *in > vitro* anti-viral activity, but never became an approved treatment for > any of them. > > > > It must be that the elites are consipring. That's the only reasonable > explanation for the facts. > > > > -- rec -- > > > > On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 2:28 AM Pieter Steenekamp < > piet...@randcontrols.co.za> wrote: > > Nick, > > Thanks for pointing out that my message is not very clear. Let me rewrite > it with a change in wording, I hope it's better this time. > > I believe that the study that Marcus referred to above , > https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid > , > is most probably correct. > > Help me if I'm wrong. It proves that according to a specific protocol, > there are no benefits against covid in using ivermectin. Does that mean > that there are no other prophylaxis protocols that include ivermectin that > do give benefits? > > I'd like to make sense of what's happening in India. According to some > (see references below), the use of ivermectin is effective against covid in > India. I really don't know how reliable these sources are. Does anyone have > better information? I'd like to know. > > References: > > https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/ > > > > https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf > > > https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/ > > > > > https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/ > > > > > https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/ > > > > Pieter > > > > > > > > On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 23:13, <thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Pieter > > > > Did you perhaps leave out a link? Which study? > > > > Nick Thompson > > thompnicks...@gmail.com > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > > > > *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Pieter Steenekamp > *Sent:* Saturday, August 14, 2021 12:09 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > friam@redfish.com> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope > > > > I believe this study is most probably correct. > > Help me if I'm wrong. It proves that according to a specific protocol, > there are no benefits against covid in using ivermectin. Does that mean > that there are no other prophylaxis protocols that include ivermectin that > do give benefits? > > I'd like to make sense of what's happening in India. According to some > (see reference below), the use of ivermectin is effective against covid in > India. I really don't know how reliable these sources are. Does anyone have > better information? I'd like to know. > > References: > > https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/ > > https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf > > https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/ > > > https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/ > > > https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/ > > > > Pieter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 17:34, Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com> wrote: > > > https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe <http://bit.ly/virtualfriamun/subscribe> > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >
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