You have Gen Z friends? According to the NYT they won't let you see their bare feet.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/01/style/open-toe-sandal-appropriate.html --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Mon, Jun 3, 2024, 12:34 PM glen <geprope...@gmail.com> wrote: > IDK. Were we to allow that > > a) X merely means a singular, mostly atomic, thing, and > b) "determine" means what most of us think it means, > > then you'd be right. A better way to state it would be: > > In the US, our collection of mechanisms for selecting the most powerful, > but not all-powerful, person in our federa[l|ated] and hierarchically > composed government carries too much structural/systemic bias for a > reasonable person to describe it as "democratic". Nick's gloss was way too > vague for one to use that more refined statement to contradict his. If we > allow democracy to be a spectrum, some more, some less, democratic, then > Nick's statement stands well enough. But as my Gen Z friends are telling me > on a daily basis, they're not going to vote in November because it doesn't > matter. Biden and Trump are the same person. Both lie. And even if/when > they're not lying, whatever they intend to do will be subverted by or > enervated with the noxious intentions of the oligarchs or self-aggrandizing > agendas of the rest of the politicians, including SCOTUS. > > But even that sentiment (that the whole system is Borked) contradicts one > of the normal interpretations of the word "determined". Such a frothing > mess my be deterministic. But if it is, it's chaotic; so much so that > morons like Trump wouldn't be capable of "determining our common reality". > And even if we broaden the conception of "determine" out to mean something > Rawlsian like the veil of ignorance, that which of Trump or Biden is > elected will (or not) somehow affect the power status on the other side of > the veil, my Gen Z friends would say it does not. The Musks and Thiels will > still be the most powerful people on the planet come next year, regardless > of who is elected. So neither Biden nor Trump "determine" our common > reality in any meaningful sense, though they may well add a tiny little > bias in some very large space. > > > On 6/1/24 08:28, Prof David West wrote: > > Nick said, > > > > /"In democracy, we find some way to blend our experiences into a common > view."/ > > > > If the "democracy" of which you speak is that of the New England Town > Hall, or that of tribal societies of long ago, you are probably reasonably > accurate. > > > > However, that sense of "democracy" no longer exists, at least here in > the US. Regardless of how one votes, the result is absolutely and > completely *assigning X the job of determining our common reality*. > > > > davew > > > > On Fri, May 31, 2024, at 9:58 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: > >> This (see below) got served up to me out of the blue this morning. The > way it's put here, Frank and Bruce might actually agree with it. Still, > it's straight Peirce. I have no idea who the author is; do any of you? > >> > >> Here's crucial passage. > >> > >> /Our understanding of reality needs a complete overhaul. Rather than > viewing it as a fixed, external stage upon which events play out, we should > consider it as a dynamic interplay between observers and their > environment [/experiences/]. Reality, in this view, doesn’t reside out > there, independent of us. Instead, reality is our interactions with the > world [/one another/], shaped and defined by our > observations [/experiences/]. Reality is nothing but [/the telos of/] those > interactions between subjects./ > >> > >> I had to make those little changes because the author, like so many > aspiring monists, after arguing against observer independence for a hundred > words, slips up by implying that the "environment" is anything but > something else that we have to agree upon, if we are ever going to get on > with life. > >> > >> By the way, I stipulate that nothing in his argument has ANYTHING to > do with quantum mechanics. The argument would be sound even if the idea of > a quantum had never been thought. However, I like the idea of physics as > some kind of language of convergent belief. > >> > >> By the way, In history there seem to have been two ways for people > converge on a common experience, charisma and democracy. In charisma, we > pick some idiot (usually a psychopath) and share his or her experience. In > democracy, we find some way to blend our experiences into a common view. > Sometime in the next few months we will decide which way we want to go. > Do we want to assign Trump the job of determining our common reality, or > do we want to continue to work it out amongst ourselves through experiment > and argument. > >> > >> Weather gorgeous here in the mosquito infested swamp. Garden > thriving. A much better year. > >> > >> Watch that dry line in TX. It's truly amazing. Can it really be true > that I am the only weather fanatic on a list that is devoted to > complexity? How can that be? > >> > >> NIck > >> > >> > >> > >> > https://medium.com/machine-cognition/objective-reality-doesnt-exist-it-is-time-to-accept-it-and-move-on-7524b494d6af > < > https://medium.com/machine-cognition/objective-reality-doesnt-exist-it-is-time-to-accept-it-and-move-on-7524b494d6af > > > >> < > https://medium.com/machine-cognition/objective-reality-doesnt-exist-it-is-time-to-accept-it-and-move-on-7524b494d6af > > > >> > >> Objective Reality Doesn’t Exist: It is Time to Embrace it and Move On < > https://medium.com/machine-cognition/objective-reality-doesnt-exist-it-is-time-to-accept-it-and-move-on-7524b494d6af > > > >> The shift towards a unified, observer-dependent reality forces us to > let go — once and for all — of the idea of objective reality > >> medium.com > > -- > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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