Nick, George as dinner guest: https://youtu.be/BsF9tgtLk1U?si=uryJ05y7Ok77nJYi
____________________________________________ CEO Founder, Simtable.com stephen.gue...@simtable.com Harvard Visualization Research and Teaching Lab stephengue...@fas.harvard.edu mobile: (505)577-5828 On Mon, Jul 8, 2024, 11:19 AM Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, Steve, > > While I might draw back from saying that George Peter Tremblay, IV, is my > friend, I sure would cop to the admission that he is my buddy. > The term, "buddy", was introduced to me years ago as a label for a kind of > narrow or incomplete friendship that surrounds a particular activity, as in > "golfing buddy" or "drinking buddy". George is just great when I want to > explore some new noodle that has just come upon me,but he demurs politely > when I invite him to dinner. Friam has been spared much of my madness > because of George. > > Nick > > On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 12:53 PM steve smith <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote: > >> Sabine H. snarked this at me... and I responded by trying to read >> through the AI hype sprinkled with Quantum Dust... I think it is >> (obliquely?) relevant to our Consciousness Maunderings here. >> >> QUALL-E, a quantum computer running a human-level artificial intelligence >> algorithm, who has observed a quantum system >> https://quantum-journal.org/papers/q-2023-09-14-1112/ >> >> Frank, >> >> embodied where? in our shared world? if it uses sensors and actuators >> like Marcus's Waymo that perceives him and hopefully acts to avoid him? >> >> Consider the Simtable that uses structured light >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structured_light> in a perception-action >> loop (ala the neo-Gibsonians in ecological psychology) with the projector >> camera feedback to recover a dynamic 3D model of its world and watch with >> its camera for human interaction (laserpointers, object tracking etc) to >> trigger corresponding behaviors with the projector to interact with the >> user. Is it embodied? >> >> >> On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 12:08 PM Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> So you think of software running on a computer as being embodied? >>> >>> --- >>> Frank C. Wimberly >>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, >>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++%0D%0A++++++++++++++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g> >>> Santa Fe, NM 87505 >>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++%0D%0A++++++++++++++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g> >>> >>> 505 670-9918 >>> Santa Fe, NM >>> >>> On Sun, Jul 7, 2024, 9:12 AM Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I think of large language models as the most embodied things on the >>>> planet, but let that go for a moment. Back to baby steps. >>>> >>>> Can you lay out for me why you believe that language is essential to >>>> self-awareness. Does that believe arise from ideology, authority, or some >>>> set of facts I need to take account of. To be honest here, I should say >>>> where I am coming from. A lot of my so-called career was spent railing >>>> against circular reasoning in evolutionary theory and psychology. So, if >>>> language is essential to self-awareness, and animals do not have language, >>>> then it indeed follows that animals do not have self-awareness. But what >>>> if our method for detecting self awareness requires language? Now we are in >>>> a loop. Are we in such a loop, or are there facts of some matter, >>>> independent of language, convince you that animals are not self-aware. Is >>>> self awareness extricable from language? >>>> >>>> It is an old old trope that animals are automata but that humans have >>>> soul. Descartes swore by it. Is "language" the new soul? >>>> >>>> Nick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 7:29 AM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I would say cats, dogs and horses don't have meta-awareness because >>>>> they lack language. They live in the present moment, in the here and now. >>>>> Without language they do not have the capability to reflect on their past >>>>> or to think about their future. They can not formulate stories of >>>>> themselves which could help to form a sense of identity. Language is >>>>> the mirror in which we perceive ourselves during "this is me" >>>>> moments. Animals lack this mirror completely. One dimensional scents >>>>> trails >>>>> do not count as language. >>>>> >>>>> Large languages models lack consciousness because they do not have a >>>>> body which is embedded as a actor in an environment. These two things are >>>>> necessary: the physical world of bodies, and the mental world of language. >>>>> When both collide in the same spot we can get consciousness. >>>>> >>>>> -J. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>>>> Date: 7/6/24 5:05 AM (GMT+01:00) >>>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >>>>> friam@redfish.com> >>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than >>>>> We Thought >>>>> >>>>> Well, that's because Socrates claimed not to know what he thought, and >>>>> since I genuinely don[t know what I think until I work it out, the >>>>> conversation has the same quality. I apologize for that. my students >>>>> found it truly distressing. >>>>> >>>>> So, if you will indulge me, why don't you think your cat has >>>>> meta=awareness? Authority, ideology, or is there some experience you >>>>> have >>>>> had that leads you to think that. It would be kind of odd if it she >>>>> didn't because animals have all sorts of ways of distinguishing self from >>>>> other. They have ways of knowinng that "I did that". (e.g., scent >>>>> marking?) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 3:19 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Well yes, if meta-awareness is defined as acting in response to one's >>>>>> own awareness then I would say animals like a cat don't have it but >>>>>> humans >>>>>> have. As an example I could say this almost feels like I am a participant >>>>>> in a dialogue from Plato... >>>>>> >>>>>> I would be surprised if it can be described in simple terms. If the >>>>>> essence of consciousness is subjective experience then it is indeed hard >>>>>> to >>>>>> describe by a theory although there are many attempts. Persons who >>>>>> perceive >>>>>> things differently are wired differently. And what is more subjective >>>>>> than >>>>>> the perception of oneself? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/what-is-consciousness/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If we can describe it mathematically then probably as a way an >>>>>> information feels if it is processed in complex ways, ad infinitum like >>>>>> the >>>>>> orbits of a strange attractor. >>>>>> >>>>>> https://chaoticatmospheres.com/mathrules-strange-attractors >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -J. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>>>>> Date: 7/5/24 6:56 PM (GMT+01:00) >>>>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >>>>>> friam@redfish.com> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than >>>>>> We Thought >>>>>> >>>>>> , >>>>>> >>>>>> Great! Baby steps. "If we aren't moving slowly, we aren't moving." >>>>>> So, can I define some new terms, tentatively, *per explorandum* ? >>>>>> Let's call acting-in-respect-to-the-world, "awareness". Allowing this >>>>>> definition, we certainly seem to agree that the cat is aware. Lets >>>>>> define >>>>>> meta-awareness as acting i respect to one's own awareness. Now, am I >>>>>> correct in assuming that you identify meta-awareness with consciousness >>>>>> and >>>>>> that you think that the cat is not meta-aware and that I probably am? >>>>>> And >>>>>> further that you think that meta-awareness requires consciousness? >>>>>> >>>>>> Nick >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 12:17 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I would say a cat is conscious in the sense that it is aware of its >>>>>>> immediate environment. Cats are nocturnal animals who hunt at night and >>>>>>> mostly sleep during the day. Consciousness in the sense of being aware >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> oneself as an actor in an environment requires understanding of language >>>>>>> which only humans have ( and LLMs now ) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.quantamagazine.org/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -J. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>>>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> Date: 7/5/24 5:02 AM (GMT+01:00) >>>>>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >>>>>>> friam@redfish.com> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than >>>>>>> We Thought >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jochen, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *I think the first step in any conversation is to decide whether >>>>>>> your cat is conscious. If so, why do you think so; if not, likewise. I >>>>>>> had a facinnationg conversation with GBT about whether he was >>>>>>> conscious >>>>>>> and he denied it "hotly", which, of course, met one of his criteria for >>>>>>> consciousness. * >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *So. Is your cat connscious? * >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Nick * >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 7:26 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't get Philip Goff: first we send our children 20 years to >>>>>>>> school, from Kindergarten to college and university, to teach them all >>>>>>>> kinds of languages, and then we wonder how they can be conscious. It >>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>> be the same for AI: first we spend millions and millions to train them >>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>> available knowledge, and then we wonder how they can develop >>>>>>>> understanding >>>>>>>> of language and consciousness... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -J. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>>>> to (un)subscribe >>>>>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>>> to (un)subscribe >>>>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>>> >>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>> to (un)subscribe >>>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>> >>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>> >>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>> >>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> >> >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
