Jochen, Thank you for your thoughtful and engaging post! It's never too late for a good discussion, even if we sometimes get distracted by the call of daily life (or perhaps the allure of a particularly captivating cat video).
Your points on the necessity of language for meta-awareness and the intriguing idea of the "blind spot" of self-perception are fascinating. However, I’d like to suggest a slight pivot in our focus. Rather than concentrating on consciousness per se, why not delve into the realm of intelligence? Why, you might ask? Well, what we're really curious about is what’s going on in our heads when we're conscious. I'd rather frame it as exploring what’s happening when we think. This shift allows us to focus on understanding intelligence, which is arguably more tangible and easier to study objectively. Imagine we endeavor to create intelligent AI. By doing so, we can define intelligence, observe it externally, and measure it objectively. This aligns with Karl Popper's idea that for something to be considered scientific, it should be falsifiable. Now, while I don't entirely subscribe to the notion that everything in research must be falsifiable (after all, some of the best discoveries come from uncharted territories), there's undeniable merit in having a testable hypothesis. Studying consciousness often leads us into murky waters where our findings might not be easily falsifiable. On the other hand, examining intelligence – with its overlap with consciousness – offers us the chance to make objective, external observations that could ultimately shed light on the very nature of consciousness itself. In the end, by focusing on intelligence, we might just find ourselves uncovering the secrets of consciousness as a delightful side effect. It’s a bit like trying to understand a cat's behavior by studying its fascination with cardboard boxes – the journey is just as enlightening as the destination. Looking forward to your thoughts! Pieter On Fri, 12 Jul 2024 at 00:06, Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: > Please excuse the late response, I was distracted a bit. > > What is the reason that one or more languages are essential for meta > awareness? I guess we all agree that all animals know their environment and > are aware of it. This is necessary to move around in it, to find food and > to avoid predators. Their biological blueprint can be found in their DNA. > > Therefore one language is necessary for the (DNA) code to specify an actor > which is embedded in a world and able to move around in it. Beings who are > embedded in an environment can perceive everything except themselves > because the own self is the center of all perceptions that can not be > perceived itself. As observers we are always attached to our own bodies. The > own person is the blind spot which a person is unable to see or hear > clearly. > > A second language is necessary to get access to the world of language and > to move around in it. It is not necessary for salmons who come back to the > stream where they were born (they use smell to do this) or for ants who > follow pheromones to find the shortest path to tasty food sources. But it > is necessary for us to become aware of ourself because it allows us to > remove the limitations of the blind spot. To consider ourself as an object > of reflection requires the ability to perceive ourself in the first place. > > > Paradoxically it is the blind spot of the inability to perceive the own > self that makes the "I" special. As Gilbert Ryle writes in his book "the > concept of mind" on page 198 > > "‘I’, in my use of it, always indicates me and only indicates me. ‘You’, > ‘she’ and ‘they’ indicate different people at different times. ‘I’ is like > my ownshadow; I can never get away from it, as I can get away from your > shadow. There is no mystery about this constancy, but I mention it because > it seems to endow ‘I’ with a mystifying uniqueness and adhesiveness." > > > Is this a baby step in the right direction? I am not sure. > > > -J. > > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> > Date: 7/8/24 11:20 PM (GMT+01:00) > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We > Thought > > i am moved by the romance and beauty of your account, but ultimately left > hungry for experiences I can put my foot on. > You and I are clearly inclined to disagree, and I was raised to experience > disagreement as a discomfort.. So how then are we to precede. I think, > not withstandijng Goethe and Cervantes, that baby steps is the only way. Of > course, you might be citing Goethe and Cervantes as authorities on the > matter, in which case I can only reply, perhaps blushing slightly at my own > callousness, that they are not so for me. > > So, what facts of the matter convince you that one or more languages are > essential for meta awareess. Or is it elf-evident > > On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 4:49 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: > >> IMHO it is not one language which is necessary, but more than one. >> Languages can be used to create worlds, to move around it them, and to >> share these wolds with others. Tolkien and J.K. Rowling have created whole >> universes. The interesting things happen if worlds collide, if they merge >> and melt, or if they drift apart. >> >> Cervantes in Spain, Goethe in Germany and Dante in Italy helped to create >> new languages - Spanish, German and Italian, respectively. They also >> examined in their most famous books what happens if worlds collide. >> >> Cervantes describes in "Don Quixote" >> >> what happens when imaginary and real worlds collide and are so out of >> sync that the actors are getting lost. >> >> Goethe decribes in his "Faust" what happens when collective and >> individual worlds collide, i.e. when egoistic individuals exploit the world >> selfishly for their own benefit (in his first book "The sorrows of young >> Werther" Goethe focused like Fontane and Freud on the opposite). >> >> Dante describes in his "Divine Comedy" >> >> what happens when worlds diverge and people are excluded and expelled >> from the world. >> >> Language is necessary for self awareness because it provides the building >> blocks for a new world which is connected but also independent from the old >> one. This allows new dimensions of interactions. The connections between >> worlds matter. A label is a simple connection between a word in one world >> and an class of objects in another. A metaphor is a more complex connection >> between an abstract idea and a composition of objects, etc. >> >> -J. >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >> Date: 7/7/24 5:13 PM (GMT+01:00) >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> >> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We >> Thought >> >> I think of large language models as the most embodied things on the >> planet, but let that go for a moment. Back to baby steps. >> >> Can you lay out for me why you believe that language is essential to >> self-awareness. Does that believe arise from ideology, authority, or some >> set of facts I need to take account of. To be honest here, I should say >> where I am coming from. A lot of my so-called career was spent railing >> against circular reasoning in evolutionary theory and psychology. So, if >> language is essential to self-awareness, and animals do not have language, >> then it indeed follows that animals do not have self-awareness. But what >> if our method for detecting self awareness requires language? Now we are in >> a loop. Are we in such a loop, or are there facts of some matter, >> independent of language, convince you that animals are not self-aware. Is >> self awareness extricable from language? >> >> It is an old old trope that animals are automata but that humans have >> soul. Descartes swore by it. Is "language" the new soul? >> >> Nick >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 7:29 AM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: >> >>> I would say cats, dogs and horses don't have meta-awareness because they >>> lack language. They live in the present moment, in the here and now. >>> Without language they do not have the capability to reflect on their past >>> or to think about their future. They can not formulate stories of >>> themselves which could help to form a sense of identity. Language is >>> the mirror in which we perceive ourselves during "this is me" >>> moments. Animals lack this mirror completely. One dimensional scents trails >>> do not count as language. >>> >>> Large languages models lack consciousness because they do not have a >>> body which is embedded as a actor in an environment. These two things are >>> necessary: the physical world of bodies, and the mental world of language. >>> When both collide in the same spot we can get consciousness. >>> >>> -J. >>> >>> >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>> Date: 7/6/24 5:05 AM (GMT+01:00) >>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >>> friam@redfish.com> >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We >>> Thought >>> >>> Well, that's because Socrates claimed not to know what he thought, and >>> since I genuinely don[t know what I think until I work it out, the >>> conversation has the same quality. I apologize for that. my students >>> found it truly distressing. >>> >>> So, if you will indulge me, why don't you think your cat has >>> meta=awareness? Authority, ideology, or is there some experience you have >>> had that leads you to think that. It would be kind of odd if it she >>> didn't because animals have all sorts of ways of distinguishing self from >>> other. They have ways of knowinng that "I did that". (e.g., scent >>> marking?) >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 3:19 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: >>> >>>> Well yes, if meta-awareness is defined as acting in response to one's >>>> own awareness then I would say animals like a cat don't have it but humans >>>> have. As an example I could say this almost feels like I am a participant >>>> in a dialogue from Plato... >>>> >>>> I would be surprised if it can be described in simple terms. If the >>>> essence of consciousness is subjective experience then it is indeed hard to >>>> describe by a theory although there are many attempts. Persons who perceive >>>> things differently are wired differently. And what is more subjective than >>>> the perception of oneself? >>>> >>>> https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/what-is-consciousness/ >>>> >>>> >>>> If we can describe it mathematically then probably as a way an >>>> information feels if it is processed in complex ways, ad infinitum like the >>>> orbits of a strange attractor. >>>> >>>> https://chaoticatmospheres.com/mathrules-strange-attractors >>>> >>>> >>>> -J. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>>> Date: 7/5/24 6:56 PM (GMT+01:00) >>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >>>> friam@redfish.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We >>>> Thought >>>> >>>> , >>>> >>>> Great! Baby steps. "If we aren't moving slowly, we aren't moving." >>>> So, can I define some new terms, tentatively, *per explorandum* ? >>>> Let's call acting-in-respect-to-the-world, "awareness". Allowing this >>>> definition, we certainly seem to agree that the cat is aware. Lets define >>>> meta-awareness as acting i respect to one's own awareness. Now, am I >>>> correct in assuming that you identify meta-awareness with consciousness and >>>> that you think that the cat is not meta-aware and that I probably am? And >>>> further that you think that meta-awareness requires consciousness? >>>> >>>> Nick >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 12:17 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I would say a cat is conscious in the sense that it is aware of its >>>>> immediate environment. Cats are nocturnal animals who hunt at night and >>>>> mostly sleep during the day. Consciousness in the sense of being aware of >>>>> oneself as an actor in an environment requires understanding of language >>>>> which only humans have ( and LLMs now ) >>>>> >>>>> https://www.quantamagazine.org/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419/ >>>>> >>>>> -J. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>>>> Date: 7/5/24 5:02 AM (GMT+01:00) >>>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >>>>> friam@redfish.com> >>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than >>>>> We Thought >>>>> >>>>> Jochen, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *I think the first step in any conversation is to decide whether your >>>>> cat is conscious. If so, why do you think so; if not, likewise. I had a >>>>> facinnationg conversation with GBT about whether he was conscious and he >>>>> denied it "hotly", which, of course, met one of his criteria for >>>>> consciousness. * >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *So. Is your cat connscious?* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Nick * >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 7:26 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I don't get Philip Goff: first we send our children 20 years to >>>>>> school, from Kindergarten to college and university, to teach them all >>>>>> kinds of languages, and then we wonder how they can be conscious. It will >>>>>> be the same for AI: first we spend millions and millions to train them >>>>>> all >>>>>> available knowledge, and then we wonder how they can develop >>>>>> understanding >>>>>> of language and consciousness... >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/ >>>>>> >>>>>> -J. >>>>>> >>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>> to (un)subscribe >>>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>> >>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>> >>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>> >>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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