The role of language in achieving meta-awareness explores the nuanced distinctions between mechanistic descriptions of awareness and the richer, more integrated experiences of consciousness, such as those observed in animals. While mechanistic explanations are valid, they often lack the depth to capture the full essence of conscious experience. When considering AI or a cat, one might observe behaviors that mimic awareness or consciousness. However, it remains challenging, if not impossible, for an external observer to definitively verify the presence of true consciousness. We might create AI systems that convincingly simulate conscious behavior, but whether this equates to actual consciousness is another matter. The richness of experience, integration of sensory inputs, and the complexity of responses in a dog, as you describe, could indeed serve as a model. Yet, the intrinsic subjectivity of consciousness means that any external validation is inherently limited. In essence, while we can strive to emulate consciousness, the ability to confirm its authenticity in another being, be it an AI or a cat, will likely remain elusive. This mirrors your view that the mechanistic explanations, though accurate, often fall short of encapsulating the full experience of being aware.
Pieter On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 at 08:14, Eric Smith <desm...@santafe.edu> wrote: > Nick sed: > > So, what facts of the matter convince you that one or more languages are > essential for meta awareess. Or is it elf-evident > > > You could do as the linguists do and look for minimal pairs: > > The obvious low-hanging fruit is sleeping/awake. Everybody knows that one > and uses it, and probably rightly so. > > But then, if you are aware that your dog can have states of delirium if > medicated or ill, and that this is _not_ the same as being “with it”, > clearly there is something else in the “with it” that we often intend by > “awareness”, which is somehow made more salient by the contrast. > > > There is a digression in here somewhere, and I am not sure where to put > it. It is at one time a caution against the excessively mechanistic habits > of saying things, and also a rejection of most of those who reject > mechanistic language (or rather, the way they do). > > An example of the class: If I speak of “material things”, I intend a > pretty inclusive category, meaning that the substance is our normal > hierarchy of matter as now fairly nicely understood through physics; they > take up space and have world-lines (relating them to spacetime), etc. > > Now, if I go on to say “people are material things”, I haven’t violated > anything as far as I can tell. > > But maybe then someone sensitive is outraged, and harangues me with “How > can you say that all people are is things!” and so on. The bad-faith (or > sloppy thought) is that I didn’t say “all”. If I ever say “all” about any > referent, I am obligating myself to give as much as is required to set the > object of that referent apart from every object of every other referent. > Which of course, generally, would be an infinite obligation. > > It seems the same to me, with the mechanistic behaviorist accounts of > awareness (or whatever word; they are not all coextensive, and there are > many). The mechanistic angles, carefully said, are completely fine, in the > same sense as my account that “people are material things” seems to me > unproblematic membership in a likely-pretty-stable category, and a quite > inclusive one. But surely, among the material things, there is much else > that sets people apart, for which we still need concepts that somehow add > something to our nebulous intuitions and gestures (else, just stay with the > gestures). So also for “awareness” among the broad range of things that > are behavior. It seems that people want good concepts for setting > categories apart within others. They have some terms from the common > language, and at least most of the time feel that those have the right > affective direction. (The philosophers “What is it like to be a …”) But > if asked for terms with which one can do more than the slippery > common-language usages enable, they are generally disappointed with > whatever is suggested to them. > > Most of the terms that are trotted out, since time immemorial, are either > common-language terms, or maybe mechanical terms for broad categories of > other things. No complaint with them, but they don’t feel like they grasp > anything “new” and distinctive to this case of having experience. It seems > perfectly sensible to me that, as long as there isn’t that novelty, people > will continue to express dissatisfaction, and go back to artistic > renderings. I would _love_ to have new concept terms, which were as > satisfying as the artistic and emotive ones, but that also made things > thinkable. Being a physicist, I am completely optimistic that such should > be possible. Curved, Minkowskian n-dimensional spacetimes, and superposed > quantum-mechanical state spaces were not thinkable concepts before we > slowly got to them, but we have them now, and they are wonderful and > satisfying. They add a thing to the world that wasn’t in it before. Why > not that, too, for whatever we self-gesture at with awareness. > > > But then, speaking of what is wanted, let me return to dogs: If I had to > use words to refer to the condition of greeting after an absence, they > would be something like: You! You’re here! You! > > Of course, that “you!” Is a composite of smells, sights, sounds, contact, > and what-all. Very thick; very integrated, very concrete and substantial. > And complex. All the dimensions of trust or entitlement are layered onto > them. > > If I were asked, what is the notion of “being aware” that you feel is not > yet well-flagged as-itself, by the behaviorists’ machine-like (old) > language, I would say that whatever the dog is experiencing is about as > full and complete a sense of what distinguishes awareness as anything I > ever experience. > > I would go further and say that that state of awareness is much _more_ > fundamental than the somewhat-contrived notions of “self” that come up as > frameworks or targets of attention sometimes. Those notions can arise as > constructions within awareness, but I would not put them as a container for > it. That container is closer to whatever the dog is doing, and that I, in > complex but uncomplicated moments, can sometimes forget myself and do (or > maybe I should only use the past tense at this point). > > Eric > > > > On Jul 9, 2024, at 6:19 AM, Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > i am moved by the romance and beauty of your account, but ultimately left > hungry for experiences I can put my foot on. > You and I are clearly inclined to disagree, and I was raised to experience > disagreement as a discomfort.. So how then are we to precede. I think, > not withstandijng Goethe and Cervantes, that baby steps is the only way. Of > course, you might be citing Goethe and Cervantes as authorities on the > matter, in which case I can only reply, perhaps blushing slightly at my own > callousness, that they are not so for me. > > So, what facts of the matter convince you that one or more languages are > essential for meta awareess. Or is it elf-evident > > On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 4:49 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: > >> IMHO it is not one language which is necessary, but more than one. >> Languages can be used to create worlds, to move around it them, and to >> share these wolds with others. Tolkien and J.K. Rowling have created whole >> universes. The interesting things happen if worlds collide, if they merge >> and melt, or if they drift apart. >> >> Cervantes in Spain, Goethe in Germany and Dante in Italy helped to create >> new languages - Spanish, German and Italian, respectively. They also >> examined in their most famous books what happens if worlds collide. >> >> Cervantes describes in "Don Quixote" >> what happens when imaginary and real worlds collide and are so out of >> sync that the actors are getting lost. >> >> Goethe decribes in his "Faust" what happens when collective and >> individual worlds collide, i.e. when egoistic individuals exploit the world >> selfishly for their own benefit (in his first book "The sorrows of young >> Werther" Goethe focused like Fontane and Freud on the opposite). >> >> Dante describes in his "Divine Comedy" >> what happens when worlds diverge and people are excluded and expelled >> from the world. >> >> Language is necessary for self awareness because it provides the building >> blocks for a new world which is connected but also independent from the old >> one. This allows new dimensions of interactions. The connections between >> worlds matter. A label is a simple connection between a word in one world >> and an class of objects in another. A metaphor is a more complex connection >> between an abstract idea and a composition of objects, etc. >> >> -J. >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >> Date: 7/7/24 5:13 PM (GMT+01:00) >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> >> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We >> Thought >> >> I think of large language models as the most embodied things on the >> planet, but let that go for a moment. Back to baby steps. >> >> Can you lay out for me why you believe that language is essential to >> self-awareness. Does that believe arise from ideology, authority, or some >> set of facts I need to take account of. To be honest here, I should say >> where I am coming from. A lot of my so-called career was spent railing >> against circular reasoning in evolutionary theory and psychology. So, if >> language is essential to self-awareness, and animals do not have language, >> then it indeed follows that animals do not have self-awareness. But what >> if our method for detecting self awareness requires language? Now we are in >> a loop. Are we in such a loop, or are there facts of some matter, >> independent of language, convince you that animals are not self-aware. Is >> self awareness extricable from language? >> >> It is an old old trope that animals are automata but that humans have >> soul. Descartes swore by it. Is "language" the new soul? >> >> Nick >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 7:29 AM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: >> >>> I would say cats, dogs and horses don't have meta-awareness because they >>> lack language. They live in the present moment, in the here and now. >>> Without language they do not have the capability to reflect on their past >>> or to think about their future. They can not formulate stories of >>> themselves which could help to form a sense of identity. Language is >>> the mirror in which we perceive ourselves during "this is me" >>> moments. Animals lack this mirror completely. One dimensional scents trails >>> do not count as language. >>> >>> Large languages models lack consciousness because they do not have a >>> body which is embedded as a actor in an environment. These two things are >>> necessary: the physical world of bodies, and the mental world of language. >>> When both collide in the same spot we can get consciousness. >>> >>> -J. >>> >>> >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>> Date: 7/6/24 5:05 AM (GMT+01:00) >>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >>> friam@redfish.com> >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We >>> Thought >>> >>> Well, that's because Socrates claimed not to know what he thought, and >>> since I genuinely don[t know what I think until I work it out, the >>> conversation has the same quality. I apologize for that. my students >>> found it truly distressing. >>> >>> So, if you will indulge me, why don't you think your cat has >>> meta=awareness? Authority, ideology, or is there some experience you have >>> had that leads you to think that. It would be kind of odd if it she >>> didn't because animals have all sorts of ways of distinguishing self from >>> other. They have ways of knowinng that "I did that". (e.g., scent >>> marking?) >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 3:19 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: >>> >>>> Well yes, if meta-awareness is defined as acting in response to one's >>>> own awareness then I would say animals like a cat don't have it but humans >>>> have. As an example I could say this almost feels like I am a participant >>>> in a dialogue from Plato... >>>> >>>> I would be surprised if it can be described in simple terms. If the >>>> essence of consciousness is subjective experience then it is indeed hard to >>>> describe by a theory although there are many attempts. Persons who perceive >>>> things differently are wired differently. And what is more subjective than >>>> the perception of oneself? >>>> https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/what-is-consciousness/ >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2finformationisbeautiful.net%2fvisualizations%2fwhat-is-consciousness%2f&c=E,1,9CB4v0IpeZcvuZaEaFQeWBNk-4VABbaeMfLlDlVkeqjuFXDjKCHiGkySLmJJVjeUZXik8wezjQ8-6Al6p1_SMfgqY5u2B-kQS7E-fE5rKWtq7IuH&typo=1> >>>> >>>> If we can describe it mathematically then probably as a way an >>>> information feels if it is processed in complex ways, ad infinitum like the >>>> orbits of a strange attractor. >>>> https://chaoticatmospheres.com/mathrules-strange-attractors >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fchaoticatmospheres.com%2fmathrules-strange-attractors&c=E,1,Xrhmsgov8zHqeBRIZAf6KBl8l_hbfPMbXgZ70QfIP_wMuFjPyxS08hTxFucpD_K9pTqpu9FotEGCqTi0UddN_yzTFHZCyB9eJx5s_HvlW_-Odq7ruu_iKYlV-Wc,&typo=1> >>>> >>>> -J. >>>> >>>> >>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>>> Date: 7/5/24 6:56 PM (GMT+01:00) >>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >>>> friam@redfish.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We >>>> Thought >>>> >>>> , >>>> >>>> Great! Baby steps. "If we aren't moving slowly, we aren't moving." >>>> So, can I define some new terms, tentatively, *per explorandum* ? >>>> Let's call acting-in-respect-to-the-world, "awareness". Allowing this >>>> definition, we certainly seem to agree that the cat is aware. Lets define >>>> meta-awareness as acting i respect to one's own awareness. Now, am I >>>> correct in assuming that you identify meta-awareness with consciousness and >>>> that you think that the cat is not meta-aware and that I probably am? And >>>> further that you think that meta-awareness requires consciousness? >>>> >>>> Nick >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 12:17 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I would say a cat is conscious in the sense that it is aware of its >>>>> immediate environment. Cats are nocturnal animals who hunt at night and >>>>> mostly sleep during the day. Consciousness in the sense of being aware of >>>>> oneself as an actor in an environment requires understanding of language >>>>> which only humans have ( and LLMs now ) >>>>> >>>>> https://www.quantamagazine.org/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419/ >>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.quantamagazine.org%2finsects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419%2f&c=E,1,-lvTagryFZtC5H2g48gil46SZ5rxD8wFNQpQkp2xpkNEZ0GkFbMDEHtWVHi01yJ7kyYCC615lAypJkuw4iCwSVPMotCaeiLjK8DWDo5AsKAaUnam&typo=1> >>>>> >>>>> -J. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>>>> Date: 7/5/24 5:02 AM (GMT+01:00) >>>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >>>>> friam@redfish.com> >>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than >>>>> We Thought >>>>> >>>>> Jochen, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *I think the first step in any conversation is to decide whether your >>>>> cat is conscious. If so, why do you think so; if not, likewise. I had a >>>>> facinnationg conversation with GBT about whether he was conscious and he >>>>> denied it "hotly", which, of course, met one of his criteria for >>>>> consciousness. * >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *So. Is your cat connscious?* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Nick * >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 7:26 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I don't get Philip Goff: first we send our children 20 years to >>>>>> school, from Kindergarten to college and university, to teach them all >>>>>> kinds of languages, and then we wonder how they can be conscious. It will >>>>>> be the same for AI: first we spend millions and millions to train them >>>>>> all >>>>>> available knowledge, and then we wonder how they can develop >>>>>> understanding >>>>>> of language and consciousness... >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/ >>>>>> >>>>>> -J. >>>>>> >>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,cZeb4zd9YBHt-HVn1p46e4q2S0IVzjG1-O45jrtfow3Qf_cvEEC19kRmLex60293Qqzf7TjHMd-dNnmcY7yb5F8gLrU9eZOH_vG3niNyJhBI&typo=1> >>>>>> to (un)subscribe >>>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,AsbfALLBUjEPwQ9xbaQzI6lc4svKc0ODa0YMIiHYdQXyGE9BMQrm4R4vsLIidqFwDapu9CBUrPAjclF3Fcl7EqrVxeA1HCgZun223wFJRf5We23hfA,,&typo=1> >>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,Baw69UjyFP0GEh2jhOYcp7iJfYsVB6GorTa0v1GQnFjRy7sDkbm2Ttgl_FNwpj4Q1nYyy6JgjzXsA1o5Dow7x6Hbtt65RihJFTaJ1ZPhhBWnz7IJaA,,&typo=1> >>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,D2hx8j2whuf3ZPN-hu-wPJ3n4f_NSK-UqZYonL7jmhRjFeAXpIbAwdzpxQ2ma4fKzowmo__EmTTjMuACXSb7xnQTT9a8100LTASe2OOFuwTlQjsWiRI,&typo=1> >>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>> >>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,yl_Xof1ubC50I9urGlyukb_CxNDZGPA8tnUsIyu_d6a9vp8GvrftOFN9lvVCyaoJQATQPJWkGMExnuSjl7K6yIAgMYpIsDAL7MNqgkK4hBLpFvfL&typo=1> >>>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,c3uiHxsdP24z4z0n9F--PQgop6joTp1E-xVzDqLxWzzfuQ6-pmcd9YuxzKaE6O96BqK5xcUNDpdDoHlTEbKX4XEVLXM52Xc4u_UTwLBlHC5M&typo=1> >>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,zf2E5eX09lNy_3K_J5Ep1VhNW_68VuHm_n30RSlGLFNmlR7lsVy2gpyIGHC4pvdXXDCxsaYDei43wnrJEiJDcDsb6DWHujzflrdqJk3Se6ohXHxrEMo,&typo=1> >>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,_sx9nUQmfEBqPkcevUIXQ8XlIMsOf1leRDuimKuhbAa3tmKrL0XsGpK_U_KJ3K-MPo06dRQ0DkBv-OJ_LIizuXIVLUjEpyjrm5b0zc7kTA,,&typo=1> >>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>> >>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,wO5ebSbjtNELT_ea13upAcWkEOJLqkQTKm4L9m_KAm5qAydX5ZEYtT-nEYMlr5zA5bUES-bT1oIKZWroa8slMaXF1mCqYr4LswPP1vvAP-uDuxb3&typo=1> >>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,4z5MZ29G1ffL3NKj7ncYfsrTtgrrKw9vPLfGgA80N45fyKyhxrjVjiLiGNcGps8SIm9353EDmoKIFsT5GEfOXmTdDzYyFwt4ro0uWNvNT0qbeptqk8cXSE8,&typo=1> >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,ai7tYmA-bus1grUl2cYCqFaauvRZ2eST68GRUlTCTwAsqwfmJUIV9rV3U4qwTlZ1act9VeA68qPkubpBFC_8T4gR1HpPaiwXTg-kFdxyvL99jtMPDpyToQ,,&typo=1> >>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,Kd6qpmqC2VH6P15ehkcue2jnF5OKbSoFBwPgt6goJ_vLOHbYQAjkYs0AeCPhBxPMt5pvK26hBQRIdP_gO5h3W5M9JKUZBOaV7ai3J3CccberfU_F-lfQ_w,,&typo=1> >>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>> >>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,KyjGV1q-AvnypR-nEkY-CfsQKT40JjQqi8040zJb_vRsgq8Oav4c5rflmljs-PGbkpN04KeiC-B3G8oYJU6IAQB6dA-axSnT3kRBomkHO133yA,,&typo=1> >>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,l-GA-THFXRenhPK7i7E0WYUd2UnwniAI3STBhpkVas96of0b7wegVCQgxXo7H39vei_0wC5LHqTPTcd0dTeaRrijAJ4sEWPyVwCLLYymItrzGWFIuXTIeQ,,&typo=1> >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,JvVwGuVprLoXsnB8HjAcaO-_FJX56561s8LV14Tyb8N-uNoPuhSKqAGPvf7KW2nSttYCA9q543Kjzdi00t07sZ3V0BzpKtcTktOX50aqAhhPNTgcs0zp-LKAnzv0&typo=1> >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,rJHTDgEKvIxr1mstuhl-vL3H6Y-ZPpiYusXrh-UJZX42_UqDi32zRmTiwBWNwnSkT60Ftz2aOVULDigUMoEYDwj7vhMCo1T_no8jgxiHQA,,&typo=1> >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,Luk4BtCQTaYjbB35XwxTW9JMCViBP3dJ5MtscgWrGIPjN8ywLs3zSkehIWMI9ExLj6HfsOva1uWsQApFGhl8RMyMAaXMkj6miKUjPweGShSE6H_RrYFI&typo=1> >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,31jetrLmkns644zZCZwifvGIH8l0OPzt3BKoHUAHZ3HKJDWQHn1c0lA3TKBA9l9mwIemomE8h1y26eCv0L6ciwryrYhPfcQn5oecOlKUf4ZBhrVIL8U,&typo=1> >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,m_M1JFkiPE398jbkrQIAxTknCd5QIk1laPgVT-qvX6Ufw7ZeLwR3WCws2gGbKgCkqaW2yt0Ak3bI94CFnIl-L9ONSeA6OlpyQ4RIb0taFiC8P2zheSsDCFtMTe0,&typo=1> >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,Wd-bEZRS0Mz7QpegcDJ1-U8295IXeWOznOtLcrvwp6cauwTy1jU2vYs13puhTER5tzpuLj7RG9GaOFtBaebvoLEb4sXNwfAgU1oM6I3-haz5_LOLihkkcWVB88B4&typo=1> >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,_xT28cqmgDHjoe9UIsVnxWr4BfCKRM3r89om74BzjgpK191hfWddk02C9Jg41jXGLFVdjtXqdqmg3UF4VcVEp1OKEj67bIBVy_44w2wmA9ngN6fbruhFccw,&typo=1 > to (un)subscribe > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,FxcreIe-f-sDOV9GPz-1l7DXfwM0mi-2Cczb7NPFMwBKEGER3vbrodfkgbh5y6zB4_tcxUzo1BUtM_Q3L1KkVuyG3lVZ0TtQu5tqoKgxvLI98wc,&typo=1 > FRIAM-COMIC > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,m3f54wwfrR95koW0WCOMjyOkzVv0QlSvXpCd2SFg6WD3HaobmMeIrADzM0vrc6NBiq8bXdjyDx41dnZlQu7A-WWdzfc-3FbQ8ssl9UEocrbojw,,&typo=1 > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,gX6SPe_F7CRqhkHEIxutf7yyEAo6ETMZlS0Vzfav09Wl-X95bnLdm-thg2ZkJjOrNugmgdYsDYQ9lYXw6oNsKC91VdYprMXdpiXR6fRZt-w,&typo=1 > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
