Lawrence, thank you very much for your kind reply.
[...]
> > By the way, are there significant differences between western males and
> > eastern males, or western females, in terms of certainty? Is the answer
a
> > certainty itself?
>
> I focused on western males because we were talking a Muslim and female
> practices of dress. I do suspect that on other issues, we would find
> western females, and eastern males and females full of their own (blind
and
> ignorant) certainties. I suupose that it is an age-old practice of all
> cultures to assert how right they are and how wrong everyone else is. It
> just saddens me to see this unfortunate pattern repeat itself here on this
> wonderful Internet. I have just come from a three-day seminar with a
dozen
> founders of personal computers, the Internet, and the World-Wide Web.
Their
> hope has been that these technologies would enable us to build a better
> world. It is dispiriting to find medieval hubris creeping in, even here.
Ethnocentrism? It seems to be a tendency to hide behind our narrowest
beliefs, customs and practices looking for shelter against the dangers (real
or imaginary) inherent to the globalization processes. I think that the
positive effects of Internet in this sort of things will be seen in ten
years or more, when our children have voice.
> > I think more or less the same way as Christoph Reuss regarding nuns
habit
> > and choice. And I am also a western male.
>
> And what is your thought and experience with covered Muslim women? If it
is
> possible for nuns to choose their concealing clothing (and Catholic women
> generally to do so when they enter a church), might it not also be the
case
> that Muslim women make such a choice?
I can not make a clear distinction between information and propaganda in
what have to do with the conditions of Muslim women. But I am distrustful of
fundamentalism and I think that the issue of choice is an important one. It
seems that, regarding burkas in Afganistan, a woman can choose to use it or
not, but anyway she have to wear it. What is the value of a choice in such
conditions?
Even catholic nuns have changed their habits. But anyway, they decided to be
nuns (uniforms included), and in some cases they can use other clothes or
tehy can even resign. Can a Muslim woman resign to her condition? A few,
maybe.
> > Another anecdotical contribution: the neighbourhood where I live in
Mexico
> > City is the most important jewish gettho in the country and I see a lot
of
> > hassidic (hope it's well written) kids playing football o riding bikes
> > dressed in their gloomy (from my point of view, of course) black
> > suits, with
> > their old fashioned gangster-style black hats and the curls. Many
> > times I've
> > seen these kids watching non jewish kids (as my son, 14 yo) dressed as
> > normal (statistical meaning) young people: soccer shirts
> > (Manchester United,
> > Roma or, much better, Real Madrid), pants or jeans, sport shoes... and I
> > think that they would gladly change if they had the freedom to do that.
Of
> > course I may be wrong, it's a hunch not a (western male)
> > certainty. But this
> > "uniform", as long as you can not choose how to dress, seems to me
> > comparable to the burkas, ("portable prisons", what a good expression).
> > If you tell me that these kids choose to dress that way I won't
> > say nothing,
> > but I doubt it.
> Salvador, I invite you to re-read your own description of these Hassidic
> kids. "Gangster-style" blackhats? If, as I believe is the case, Hassidic
> practices predate Chicago gansters by several centuries, might it not be
> more fair and more accurate, to accuse gangsters of wearing Hassidic-style
> hats? You see what I am getting at, of course....
Yes, you are right. I used that expression because in my context this kind
of hats (and the suits) correspond to the gangster stereotype. It's a
description, not a judgement, and I don't want to be offensive. But you say
nothing about the argument: this kind of clothing (the hassidic, or the Sik
in India, for example) could be seen as primitive (as opposed to modern),
impractical, unfair, etc., as the burkas.
> > I haven't ask because it's not easy at all to speak with
> > these people when you are not one of them.
> You might be surprised over how easy and how rewarding it might be to talk
> with Hassidics about their practices. I think that you (or anyone else)
who
> did so might come away with a greater understanding of another culture,
and
> of how the world works. As with the case of Muslim women, I can suggest a
> couple of ways that you could do this, if you wish to have any
suggestions.
Not in my environment. Hassidcs are not friendly people. I live 100 meters
from an important sinagoge and I have to interact with hundreds of them.
They are hostile to people outside their group, selfish, lack of respect to
neighbours (noisy), etc. etc. I have some jewish friends and when I tried to
get information about this particular group even they seemed skeptical. Of
course I could find a good rabbi to get accurate information to understand
this group's culture and mindset, but it wouldn't change the every day
experience of the neighbourhood.
Suggestions are welcome, of course.
> Wouldn't it be great if everyone reading our corrspendence here decided to
> approach members of the cultural group that seems most strange to them,
and
> to sit down and explore each other's worlds?
In Mexico, a very stratified and divided society, you can find a strange
group a few blocks from home. One of the biggest challenges of living here
is to understand others and, event worst, to be understood and respected.
> > You can also argue that the
> > clothes my son wear are also a uniform, and it's true, but he can at
least
> > choose the color of his shirt and his hairdressing.
> > Burkas has many forms and are closer than we use to accept.
>
> I am missing your meaning here: Burkas are closer than we use to accept?
I was trying to say that the burka fenomena is more common that we think and
not only restricted to the Muslim world. I talked about hassidics as an
example, but among mexican indians (another example) there are a good amount
of practices that would be reprovable from an occidental or modern
perspective, not only in terms of clothing, like selling daughters or
beating wives. We don't have to look as far as Afghanistan...
> I am delighted that you are on this list, and hope you will participate as
> much as you wish to.
Thank you very much. I appreciate to be part of this interesting group.
Best regards,
Salvador
