Hi Ray, In a way, this posting connects with a point you made referring to Rubert Ross in a recent post. Jimmy Carter said at his Nobel award ceremony that all war is evil; even (especially?) when the killing is done by the 'good guys'. He also said evil begets evil. I agree; it seems you don't. Do you know the poetry of Bob Dylan?:
Oh my name it is nothin' My age it means less The country I come from Is called the Midwest I's taught and brought up there The laws to abide And that land that I live in Has God on its side. Oh the history books tell it They tell it so well The cavalries charged The Indians fell The cavalries charged The Indians died Oh the country was young With God on its side. Oh the Spanish-American War had its day And the Civil War too Was soon laid away And the names of the heroes I's made to memorize With guns in their hands And God on their side. Oh the First World War, boys It closed out its fate The reason for fighting I never got straight But I learned to accept it Accept it with pride For you don't count the dead When God's on your side. When the Second World War Came to an end We forgave the Germans And we were friends Though they murdered six million In the ovens they fried The Germans now too Have God on their side. I've learned to hate Russians All through my whole life If another war starts It's them we must fight To hate them and fear them To run and to hide And accept it all bravely With God on my side. But now we got weapons Of the chemical dust If fire them we're forced to Then fire them we must One push of the button And a shot the world wide And you never ask questions When God's on your side. In a many dark hour I've been thinkin' about this That Jesus Christ Was betrayed by a kiss But I can't think for you You'll have to decide Whether Judas Iscariot Had God on his side. So now as I'm leavin' I'm weary as Hell The confusion I'm feelin' Ain't no tongue can tell The words fill my head And fall to the floor If God's on our side He'll stop the next war. Which countries should have been left alone? All those countries that didn't want to become sweatshops for US business. Lawry added an additional layer of evil to the bombing. He referred to the death squads trained at the School of America to kill and terrorize.(Phil Berrigan spent time protesting this school) Eg. 6 Jesuit professors and Archbishop Romero and 80,000 other El Salvadorians. Want to make a bet as to when Venezuela will have its final coup that will snuff out Chavez's desperate attempt at a 'potlatch'? Take care, Brian > Brian, > > I usually agree with you Brian but I would like to know which of these > countries should have been left alone and what you think would have > happened > if we had. I was conscious for all but the China stuff in the > forties and > even now remember most of these skirmishes. Would you care to show > where > we were wrong in being there? Also many of these were under UN > auspices. > > I would remind you that there is a considerable side of Republicanism > that > is isolationist and totally against foreign involvement except when > threatened at which point they simply would do what would kill the > most > "enemy" and endanger the least of our own. That could include such > things > as the same deal for Mecca as they gave Moscow with mutual > destruction. > There are many here who would just as soon point a chemical or > biological > bomb in the direction of the home countries of the people who would > bomb > America and say simply: "If you so much as bother one hair on the > head of > my son I will waste your country for generations." They do have > something > in common with the late Syrian Dictator Hafez Assad on that account. > I > remember sitting next to Chemical, Biological and Radiological folks > when I > was in the Army since we shared the same infirmary. You wouldn't > want to > know the cold clarity that they had towards "cleansing an area of its > population" with as little collateral material damage as is possible. > > I enjoyed Steven Spielberg's "Alien" series "Taken" for the past two > weeks > primarily for the studies of American life that they did in tracing > the > history of three American Families from the forties to the present. > The > US Military is a sleeping giant Tiger that should not be fooled with. > They are professional, cold, fanatical and believe in their > righteousness. > They are the military equivalent of a Nuclear Power Plant and we work > constantly to keep them grounded and pointed in the least dangerous of > the > possible directions. Keith spoke of defections. Yes there were in > Korea > but those were not professionals but draftees. These folks have > their own > culture and they have grown it since the end of the military draft in > the > late sixties. I don't see any defections from that group. They > are > more likely to resemble the Turks of the UN Korea troops in the Korean > War > than the Americans of that era. The Turks had zero defections to the > North. > > The Military and the amorality of science were two very realistic > sides to > Spielberg's series. The sheer sense of the game in pure science and > how > at home it is with pure capitalism apart from the Romance of 19th > century > Communism or Humanism. To speak of the murder of one's lover as > "being > deleted" was truly cold but frighteningly charming. I think the > world > doesn't truly understand what is going on here in this monster economy > and > the dangers of the place where the greatest pure science is done by > the > government, and most of all the military, because anything else would > be the > socialist system and the enemy of Capitalism. So police and bombs > are OK > but schools are suspect. This is not a place to fool around or to > tease. > Those little green cars are truly out there. > > So Brian, I suspect those bombs were only the least possible > alternatives of > what could have been if you hadn't had people like Truman willing to > fire > Douglas MacArthur and hold down the rest. In the American Military > you > are either advanced in rank or you are fired. You get two tries for > promotion and wars are the only sure way to be advanced in your career > if > you like the military and considering what Krugman was talking about > with > the rest of the society under this "economist's paradise" the > military is > not so bad. I know a teacher in Medical school who recommends that > his > graduates apply to the military because HMOs are so bad and the > private > sector is such a mess for Doctors. I also know some wonderful > professional composers and singers who have put in their time as NCO's > in > the Army and gotten their pension because they could do real music > instead > of teaching ignorant teenagers in heat to do nothing with all of the > skills > they are taught. It is better in the military for the workers in > the > Public Sector if you can put up with the tyranny and the brown lips. > > So Brian, which countries should we have left alone? Until we had > problems here with them and then had another Civil War? We almost > had it > in the sixties. Americans don't like destroying their homes and > they > don't like change much in spite of the love of the newest widget. > Real > internal change is almost negligible. Beneath the latest fashions > beats a > wounded heart that still longs for some connection to its home and > original > family. Only a fool would stick a finger into that. It would be > easy > to stir up a murderous disdain for a life style that has multiple > wives, > chops off their heads if they cheat and makes a big deal if you see > their > long hair. There just isn't too much sympathy here for such things. > Take my word for it. We have dealt with this and know firsthand. > > REH > > Cherokee Expression--- > "When you were born, you cried and all the world rejoiced. > Live your life so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice." > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "mcandreb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 3:39 PM > Subject: Re: FW: profiling at airports.... > > > > Hi Arthur, > > I got this bit of info off the New Internationalist web site. > Perhaps > > you could create some multiple choice questions about these: > > > > Since the second world war > > THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT > > has bombed 21 countries > > > > China 1945-46, 1950-53 > > Korea 1950-53 > > Guatemala 1954, 1960, 1967-69 > > Indonesia 1958 > > Cuba 1959-61 > > Congo 1964 > > Peru 1965 > > Laos 1964-73 > > Vietnam 1961-73 > > Cambodia 1969-70 > > Lebanon 1983-84 > > Grenada 1983 > > Libya 1986 > > El Salvador 1980s > > Nicaragua 1980s > > Panama 1989 > > Bosnia 1985 > > Sudan 1998 > > Former Yugoslavia 1999 > > Iraq 1991-20?? > > Afghanistan 1998, 2001-02 > > > > Take care, > > Brian > Brian, > > I usually agree with you Brian but I would like to know which of these > countries should have been left alone and what you think would have > happened > if we had. I was conscious for all but the China stuff in the > forties and > even now remember most of these skirmishes. Would you care to show > where > we were wrong in being there? Also many of these were under UN > auspices. > > I would remind you that there is a considerable side of Republicanism > that > is isolationist and totally against foreign involvement except when > threatened at which point they simply would do what would kill the > most > "enemy" and endanger the least of our own. That could include such > things > as the same deal for Mecca as they gave Moscow with mutual > destruction. > There are many here who would just as soon point a chemical or > biological > bomb in the direction of the home countries of the people who would > bomb > America and say simply: "If you so much as bother one hair on the > head of > my son I will waste your country for generations." They do have > something > in common with the late Syrian Dictator Hafez Assad on that account. > I > remember sitting next to Chemical, Biological and Radiological folks > when I > was in the Army since we shared the same infirmary. You wouldn't > want to > know the cold clarity that they had towards "cleansing an area of its > population" with as little collateral material damage as is possible. > > I enjoyed Steven Spielberg's "Alien" series "Taken" for the past two > weeks > primarily for the studies of American life that they did in tracing > the > history of three American Families from the forties to the present. > The > US Military is a sleeping giant Tiger that should not be fooled with. > They are professional, cold, fanatical and believe in their > righteousness. > They are the military equivalent of a Nuclear Power Plant and we work > constantly to keep them grounded and pointed in the least dangerous of > the > possible directions. Keith spoke of defections. Yes there were in > Korea > but those were not professionals but draftees. These folks have > their own > culture and they have grown it since the end of the military draft in > the > late sixties. I don't see any defections from that group. They > are > more likely to resemble the Turks of the UN Korea troops in the Korean > War > than the Americans of that era. The Turks had zero defections to the > North. > > The Military and the amorality of science were two very realistic > sides to > Spielberg's series. The sheer sense of the game in pure science and > how > at home it is with pure capitalism apart from the Romance of 19th > century > Communism or Humanism. To speak of the murder of one's lover as > "being > deleted" was truly cold but frighteningly charming. I think the > world > doesn't truly understand what is going on here in this monster economy > and > the dangers of the place where the greatest pure science is done by > the > government, and most of all the military, because anything else would > be the > socialist system and the enemy of Capitalism. So police and bombs > are OK > but schools are suspect. This is not a place to fool around or to > tease. > Those little green cars are truly out there. > > So Brian, I suspect those bombs were only the least possible > alternatives of > what could have been if you hadn't had people like Truman willing to > fire > Douglas MacArthur and hold down the rest. In the American Military > you > are either advanced in rank or you are fired. You get two tries for > promotion and wars are the only sure way to be advanced in your career > if > you like the military and considering what Krugman was talking about > with > the rest of the society under this "economist's paradise" the > military is > not so bad. I know a teacher in Medical school who recommends that > his > graduates apply to the military because HMOs are so bad and the > private > sector is such a mess for Doctors. I also know some wonderful > professional composers and singers who have put in their time as NCO's > in > the Army and gotten their pension because they could do real music > instead > of teaching ignorant teenagers in heat to do nothing with all of the > skills > they are taught. It is better in the military for the workers in > the > Public Sector if you can put up with the tyranny and the brown lips. > > So Brian, which countries should we have left alone? Until we had > problems here with them and then had another Civil War? We almost > had it > in the sixties. Americans don't like destroying their homes and > they > don't like change much in spite of the love of the newest widget. > Real > internal change is almost negligible. Beneath the latest fashions > beats a > wounded heart that still longs for some connection to its home and > original > family. Only a fool would stick a finger into that. It would be > easy > to stir up a murderous disdain for a life style that has multiple > wives, > chops off their heads if they cheat and makes a big deal if you see > their > long hair. There just isn't too much sympathy here for such things. > Take my word for it. We have dealt with this and know firsthand. > > REH > > Cherokee Expression--- > "When you were born, you cried and all the world rejoiced. > Live your life so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice." > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "mcandreb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 3:39 PM > Subject: Re: FW: profiling at airports.... > > > > Hi Arthur, > > I got this bit of info off the New Internationalist web site. > Perhaps > > you could create some multiple choice questions about these: > > > > Since the second world war > > THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT > > has bombed 21 countries > > > > China 1945-46, 1950-53 > > Korea 1950-53 > > Guatemala 1954, 1960, 1967-69 > > Indonesia 1958 > > Cuba 1959-61 > > Congo 1964 > > Peru 1965 > > Laos 1964-73 > > Vietnam 1961-73 > > Cambodia 1969-70 > > Lebanon 1983-84 > > Grenada 1983 > > Libya 1986 > > El Salvador 1980s > > Nicaragua 1980s > > Panama 1989 > > Bosnia 1985 > > Sudan 1998 > > Former Yugoslavia 1999 > > Iraq 1991-20?? > > Afghanistan 1998, 2001-02 > > > > Take care, > > Brian
