Hi Brian, Thanks for the poem,
I believe that the issue of taking a life in order to live is always a moral dilemma. That includes eating, clearing your house of pests, etc. In our Way human life is no more sacred than any other but all life is sacred. For me the issue is always about respect and being sure that respect is given to the life you must take in order to live. We are taught that the act of taking a life is a continuum that we will all participate in whether we wish to or not. That is one of the reasons I keep bringing up the abortion issue on this list and saying that we cannot truly talk to the fundamentalists until we admit that abortion is taking a life and that being responsible means that we must be prepared to deal with the implications. In our way, you cannot get out of the dilemma by declaring that the fetus is not yet human. It is, but there is just so much room in this boat and you make choices based upon earlier choices that were accidental and you also choose to be or not be responsible for the future of the life you bring into the world. The early Jews come to this same conclusion when they declare that even the sperm of the male is alive and must not be killed but "planted" always. To deal with the fact of living in a desert they then create a whole group of female types where that can then be done without overwhelming the environment. They also create taboos in their sexuality that are difficult to deal with since it goes against the bodies need to cleanse the prostate throughout life. The Christians take up this same taboo but cut out the handmaids, concubines etc. and declare the rule must be one wife which doesn't fit within the system because instead of spreading the births around it makes a single woman responsible for them all. Thus you have Bach with his 20 children and two poor wives who died having them. Life and death are not so easy and neither is being logical within your systems as you try to eliminate the idea of killing. We are IMHO remarkably irresponsible for our choices under the Western systems of economic and political science. We define value in the hierarchy of life as based upon consciousness. Animals, especially human, are conscious, plants are not so its OK to eat plants but animals are a problem. Of course you have no way of knowing how plants feel about this since they don't talk or respond to pain in animal fashion. Of course if we are planted alive in the ground we die too so the same process could be reversed if the plants had the power over us. This may seem strange to you and the list but we are taught that the issue is a process and the belief that processes that are the same apply morally across the board. Well, I realize that this is very esoteric and foreign to Western Thought so let's skip to the idea of War. There are many kinds of deaths and the morality in our system is built around two processes. Respect and Responsibility. When you take a life you must always give respect at the gift of that life being given that you may live. How you do that is not the issue here but acknowledging that you do is the first leg of the morality. You might compare that to the idea of original sin in Judeo-Christian thought. That the very act of living is to be profane in their words. You are not better than the animals because you too must eat in order to live. The second leg is responsibility. We do not say, as do the Jews and Christians, that the soul will die unless rescued by a Messiah for the guilt of taking life in order to live. We say that the soul is here to grow and learn and that being responsible means to give back, when it is our turn to die, willingly and with joy. That the goal of Responsibility is to live fully and grow from having lived as well as well as helping others to do the same throughout all of the days given to us until we become food for future life. Like the Jews and Christians we believe the body is a shell, or husk, that contains spirit and that the spirit (consciousness) continues while the shell is released but until that release is filled with the health and joy of the spirit and cannot be separated until death. But what about war? War is almost always a failure of some sort. When we go to war where we take the life of our own kind in order to live ourselves, that is when we are the most aware of our "animalness" in this existence. War declares our lack of specialness and the death of someone else's child for some human purpose related to our survival. But the fact that we came up to that question at all telegraphs our failure as families, societies and a species to plan, develop and control, through discipline, our actions in such a way that the soul gets what it needs and spreads that around in the ultimate ideal of being human, the ideal of generosity. War is an indication of failure but sometimes a necessary one for survival. War demands a special cleansing of the spirit before that spirit enters the sacredness of a community again. The problem comes with war being also a celebration of bravery, courage and the overcoming of fear. Competition is necessary for growth on one level and the ultimate competition is "too the death." I think that war is also a cop out in many cases because instead of dealing with the complexities and intricacies of life and its questions we choose to exercise our dopamine and adrenaline in the most basic of death defying activities at the drop of a hat. If you are human and humans are important in the way of things then war should always be the last resort and only done at the failure of all of your other possibilities. I believe we also admit that we are failures as human beings when we resort to war. That is why hunting as sport and making war in the modern manner is usually simple murder in our way of thought. But that does not mean that I do not eat animals, it just means that I take responsibility for the death and for the future of that animal's continuation in their plane of existence. Respect and Responsibility. I admit that all of the bombings were failures of this society but given the moral density of such a diverse culture I also ask how it could have been different. I state that we are dealing with levels of failure here and that with such a group of brigands and castaways as citizens, e.g. every citizen of the US is a failure of another society to have taken care and made a place for them and their blood line. That psychology is a difficult one and all of the pride in being an immigrant will not cover the pain and anger at having to have been one. That psychology is a sleeping Tiger and the rest of the world would be well served to realize it and not play bravery games with their adolescents around the beast. There is no culture in the world that has not used the US as a landfill for the people they couldn't handle. (It is no accident that the people who were killed in 9/11 were taken to a Landfill where every single piece of existence was examined by hand and returned for burial, however there is no getting around the fact that much of that spirit of all of those shells will remain in the stuff of that Landfill. America is the ultimate Landfill for the failures of the rest of the world.) Canada is the good guy in this but shares these same issues as do many of the rest of the states in the New World. You know group process and you know that for every good guy there will always be the opposing balance. In this group called the Western Hemispheres, the US is the one who sees itself as being forced to be the "bad guy". That is why it only responds, in its mythology, when it sees itself as under attack. Pearl Harbor, 9/11 etc. That this is a myth is irrelevant, it is a myth buried in the American Psyche and is as relevant to American life and existence as anyone else's myths. It means that an attack gives permission to release the beast and the more beastly the better in the minds of these former cast offs. So I ask again. How could it have been any different given the low level of psychological sophistication in the world these days? The old and current enemies are no different than any one else when it comes to using the US Landfill for their failures. We have just as many Russians, Egyptians, Afghans, Pakistanis, Saudis etc. here driving cabs and supposedly picking up cash off the streets as we do any other group. But we don't give much respect to people who do not understand that they themselves were trash and that as trash, the only alternative is to build their castle here since the rest of the world doesn't want them and wants only for them to spend their life away from love, hearth and family while the folks at home have a good time. Of course they all "trash" the homeland as an excuse but down deep inside they are the ones who carry the wounds, the separation. That is why America was the first to accept psycho-therapy as its healing and religion. Even American religions imitate the psycho-therapists. It is America that acknowledges the wound. Remember in the ancient myth Vulhalla means "Hall of the Wounded." That women carry the "wound" as a part of their anatomy, etc, etc. That is a complicated situation. Any person who would walk up to a wounded beast and stick their finger in the wound is a nut. Any society that would send their young adolescents here to prove their courage or their martyrdom is also nutty IMHO. I have to teach and I haven't reread this. I trust that you will ignore any missing words, repetitions or inadequate grammar. best to you and yours, REH ----- Original Message ----- From: "mcandreb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Ray Evans Harrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 6:20 AM Subject: Re: FW: profiling at airports.... > Hi Ray, > In a way, this posting connects with a point you made referring to > Rubert Ross in a recent post. > Jimmy Carter said at his Nobel award ceremony that all war is evil; even > (especially?) when the killing is done by the 'good guys'. He also said > evil begets evil. I agree; it seems you don't. Do you know the poetry of > Bob Dylan?: > > Oh my name it is nothin' > My age it means less > The country I come from > Is called the Midwest > I's taught and brought up there > The laws to abide > And that land that I live in > Has God on its side. > > Oh the history books tell it > They tell it so well > The cavalries charged > The Indians fell > The cavalries charged > The Indians died > Oh the country was young > With God on its side. > > Oh the Spanish-American > War had its day > And the Civil War too > Was soon laid away > And the names of the heroes > I's made to memorize > With guns in their hands > And God on their side. > > Oh the First World War, boys > It closed out its fate > The reason for fighting > I never got straight > But I learned to accept it > Accept it with pride > For you don't count the dead > When God's on your side. > > When the Second World War > Came to an end > We forgave the Germans > And we were friends > Though they murdered six million > In the ovens they fried > The Germans now too > Have God on their side. > > I've learned to hate Russians > All through my whole life > If another war starts > It's them we must fight > To hate them and fear them > To run and to hide > And accept it all bravely > With God on my side. > > But now we got weapons > Of the chemical dust > If fire them we're forced to > Then fire them we must > One push of the button > And a shot the world wide > And you never ask questions > When God's on your side. > > In a many dark hour > I've been thinkin' about this > That Jesus Christ > Was betrayed by a kiss > But I can't think for you > You'll have to decide > Whether Judas Iscariot > Had God on his side. > > So now as I'm leavin' > I'm weary as Hell > The confusion I'm feelin' > Ain't no tongue can tell > The words fill my head > And fall to the floor > If God's on our side > He'll stop the next war. > > > > > Which countries should have been left alone? All those countries that > didn't want to become sweatshops for US business. Lawry added an > additional layer of evil to the bombing. He referred to the death squads > trained at the School of America to kill and terrorize.(Phil Berrigan > spent time protesting this school) Eg. 6 Jesuit professors and > Archbishop Romero and 80,000 other El Salvadorians. > Want to make a bet as to when Venezuela will have its final coup that > will snuff out Chavez's desperate attempt at a 'potlatch'? > > Take care, > Brian > > > > Brian, > > > > I usually agree with you Brian but I would like to know which of these > > countries should have been left alone and what you think would have > > happened > > if we had. I was conscious for all but the China stuff in the > > forties and > > even now remember most of these skirmishes. Would you care to show > > where > > we were wrong in being there? Also many of these were under UN > > auspices. > > > > I would remind you that there is a considerable side of Republicanism > > that > > is isolationist and totally against foreign involvement except when > > threatened at which point they simply would do what would kill the > > most > > "enemy" and endanger the least of our own. That could include such > > things > > as the same deal for Mecca as they gave Moscow with mutual > > destruction. > > There are many here who would just as soon point a chemical or > > biological > > bomb in the direction of the home countries of the people who would > > bomb > > America and say simply: "If you so much as bother one hair on the > > head of > > my son I will waste your country for generations." They do have > > something > > in common with the late Syrian Dictator Hafez Assad on that account. > > I > > remember sitting next to Chemical, Biological and Radiological folks > > when I > > was in the Army since we shared the same infirmary. You wouldn't > > want to > > know the cold clarity that they had towards "cleansing an area of its > > population" with as little collateral material damage as is possible. > > > > I enjoyed Steven Spielberg's "Alien" series "Taken" for the past two > > weeks > > primarily for the studies of American life that they did in tracing > > the > > history of three American Families from the forties to the present. > > The > > US Military is a sleeping giant Tiger that should not be fooled with. > > They are professional, cold, fanatical and believe in their > > righteousness. > > They are the military equivalent of a Nuclear Power Plant and we work > > constantly to keep them grounded and pointed in the least dangerous of > > the > > possible directions. Keith spoke of defections. Yes there were in > > Korea > > but those were not professionals but draftees. These folks have > > their own > > culture and they have grown it since the end of the military draft in > > the > > late sixties. I don't see any defections from that group. They > > are > > more likely to resemble the Turks of the UN Korea troops in the Korean > > War > > than the Americans of that era. The Turks had zero defections to the > > North. > > > > The Military and the amorality of science were two very realistic > > sides to > > Spielberg's series. The sheer sense of the game in pure science and > > how > > at home it is with pure capitalism apart from the Romance of 19th > > century > > Communism or Humanism. To speak of the murder of one's lover as > > "being > > deleted" was truly cold but frighteningly charming. I think the > > world > > doesn't truly understand what is going on here in this monster economy > > and > > the dangers of the place where the greatest pure science is done by > > the > > government, and most of all the military, because anything else would > > be the > > socialist system and the enemy of Capitalism. So police and bombs > > are OK > > but schools are suspect. This is not a place to fool around or to > > tease. > > Those little green cars are truly out there. > > > > So Brian, I suspect those bombs were only the least possible > > alternatives of > > what could have been if you hadn't had people like Truman willing to > > fire > > Douglas MacArthur and hold down the rest. In the American Military > > you > > are either advanced in rank or you are fired. You get two tries for > > promotion and wars are the only sure way to be advanced in your career > > if > > you like the military and considering what Krugman was talking about > > with > > the rest of the society under this "economist's paradise" the > > military is > > not so bad. I know a teacher in Medical school who recommends that > > his > > graduates apply to the military because HMOs are so bad and the > > private > > sector is such a mess for Doctors. I also know some wonderful > > professional composers and singers who have put in their time as NCO's > > in > > the Army and gotten their pension because they could do real music > > instead > > of teaching ignorant teenagers in heat to do nothing with all of the > > skills > > they are taught. It is better in the military for the workers in > > the > > Public Sector if you can put up with the tyranny and the brown lips. > > > > So Brian, which countries should we have left alone? Until we had > > problems here with them and then had another Civil War? We almost > > had it > > in the sixties. Americans don't like destroying their homes and > > they > > don't like change much in spite of the love of the newest widget. > > Real > > internal change is almost negligible. Beneath the latest fashions > > beats a > > wounded heart that still longs for some connection to its home and > > original > > family. Only a fool would stick a finger into that. It would be > > easy > > to stir up a murderous disdain for a life style that has multiple > > wives, > > chops off their heads if they cheat and makes a big deal if you see > > their > > long hair. There just isn't too much sympathy here for such things. > > Take my word for it. We have dealt with this and know firsthand. > > > > REH > > > > Cherokee Expression--- > > "When you were born, you cried and all the world rejoiced. > > Live your life so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice." > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "mcandreb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 3:39 PM > > Subject: Re: FW: profiling at airports.... > > > > > > > Hi Arthur, > > > I got this bit of info off the New Internationalist web site. > > Perhaps > > > you could create some multiple choice questions about these: > > > > > > Since the second world war > > > THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT > > > has bombed 21 countries > > > > > > China 1945-46, 1950-53 > > > Korea 1950-53 > > > Guatemala 1954, 1960, 1967-69 > > > Indonesia 1958 > > > Cuba 1959-61 > > > Congo 1964 > > > Peru 1965 > > > Laos 1964-73 > > > Vietnam 1961-73 > > > Cambodia 1969-70 > > > Lebanon 1983-84 > > > Grenada 1983 > > > Libya 1986 > > > El Salvador 1980s > > > Nicaragua 1980s > > > Panama 1989 > > > Bosnia 1985 > > > Sudan 1998 > > > Former Yugoslavia 1999 > > > Iraq 1991-20?? > > > Afghanistan 1998, 2001-02 > > > > > > Take care, > > > Brian > > Brian, > > > > I usually agree with you Brian but I would like to know which of these > > countries should have been left alone and what you think would have > > happened > > if we had. I was conscious for all but the China stuff in the > > forties and > > even now remember most of these skirmishes. Would you care to show > > where > > we were wrong in being there? Also many of these were under UN > > auspices. > > > > I would remind you that there is a considerable side of Republicanism > > that > > is isolationist and totally against foreign involvement except when > > threatened at which point they simply would do what would kill the > > most > > "enemy" and endanger the least of our own. That could include such > > things > > as the same deal for Mecca as they gave Moscow with mutual > > destruction. > > There are many here who would just as soon point a chemical or > > biological > > bomb in the direction of the home countries of the people who would > > bomb > > America and say simply: "If you so much as bother one hair on the > > head of > > my son I will waste your country for generations." They do have > > something > > in common with the late Syrian Dictator Hafez Assad on that account. > > I > > remember sitting next to Chemical, Biological and Radiological folks > > when I > > was in the Army since we shared the same infirmary. You wouldn't > > want to > > know the cold clarity that they had towards "cleansing an area of its > > population" with as little collateral material damage as is possible. > > > > I enjoyed Steven Spielberg's "Alien" series "Taken" for the past two > > weeks > > primarily for the studies of American life that they did in tracing > > the > > history of three American Families from the forties to the present. > > The > > US Military is a sleeping giant Tiger that should not be fooled with. > > They are professional, cold, fanatical and believe in their > > righteousness. > > They are the military equivalent of a Nuclear Power Plant and we work > > constantly to keep them grounded and pointed in the least dangerous of > > the > > possible directions. Keith spoke of defections. Yes there were in > > Korea > > but those were not professionals but draftees. These folks have > > their own > > culture and they have grown it since the end of the military draft in > > the > > late sixties. I don't see any defections from that group. They > > are > > more likely to resemble the Turks of the UN Korea troops in the Korean > > War > > than the Americans of that era. The Turks had zero defections to the > > North. > > > > The Military and the amorality of science were two very realistic > > sides to > > Spielberg's series. The sheer sense of the game in pure science and > > how > > at home it is with pure capitalism apart from the Romance of 19th > > century > > Communism or Humanism. To speak of the murder of one's lover as > > "being > > deleted" was truly cold but frighteningly charming. I think the > > world > > doesn't truly understand what is going on here in this monster economy > > and > > the dangers of the place where the greatest pure science is done by > > the > > government, and most of all the military, because anything else would > > be the > > socialist system and the enemy of Capitalism. So police and bombs > > are OK > > but schools are suspect. This is not a place to fool around or to > > tease. > > Those little green cars are truly out there. > > > > So Brian, I suspect those bombs were only the least possible > > alternatives of > > what could have been if you hadn't had people like Truman willing to > > fire > > Douglas MacArthur and hold down the rest. In the American Military > > you > > are either advanced in rank or you are fired. You get two tries for > > promotion and wars are the only sure way to be advanced in your career > > if > > you like the military and considering what Krugman was talking about > > with > > the rest of the society under this "economist's paradise" the > > military is > > not so bad. I know a teacher in Medical school who recommends that > > his > > graduates apply to the military because HMOs are so bad and the > > private > > sector is such a mess for Doctors. I also know some wonderful > > professional composers and singers who have put in their time as NCO's > > in > > the Army and gotten their pension because they could do real music > > instead > > of teaching ignorant teenagers in heat to do nothing with all of the > > skills > > they are taught. It is better in the military for the workers in > > the > > Public Sector if you can put up with the tyranny and the brown lips. > > > > So Brian, which countries should we have left alone? Until we had > > problems here with them and then had another Civil War? We almost > > had it > > in the sixties. Americans don't like destroying their homes and > > they > > don't like change much in spite of the love of the newest widget. > > Real > > internal change is almost negligible. Beneath the latest fashions > > beats a > > wounded heart that still longs for some connection to its home and > > original > > family. Only a fool would stick a finger into that. It would be > > easy > > to stir up a murderous disdain for a life style that has multiple > > wives, > > chops off their heads if they cheat and makes a big deal if you see > > their > > long hair. There just isn't too much sympathy here for such things. > > Take my word for it. We have dealt with this and know firsthand. > > > > REH > > > > Cherokee Expression--- > > "When you were born, you cried and all the world rejoiced. > > Live your life so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice." > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "mcandreb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 3:39 PM > > Subject: Re: FW: profiling at airports.... > > > > > > > Hi Arthur, > > > I got this bit of info off the New Internationalist web site. > > Perhaps > > > you could create some multiple choice questions about these: > > > > > > Since the second world war > > > THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT > > > has bombed 21 countries > > > > > > China 1945-46, 1950-53 > > > Korea 1950-53 > > > Guatemala 1954, 1960, 1967-69 > > > Indonesia 1958 > > > Cuba 1959-61 > > > Congo 1964 > > > Peru 1965 > > > Laos 1964-73 > > > Vietnam 1961-73 > > > Cambodia 1969-70 > > > Lebanon 1983-84 > > > Grenada 1983 > > > Libya 1986 > > > El Salvador 1980s > > > Nicaragua 1980s > > > Panama 1989 > > > Bosnia 1985 > > > Sudan 1998 > > > Former Yugoslavia 1999 > > > Iraq 1991-20?? > > > Afghanistan 1998, 2001-02 > > > > > > Take care, > > > Brian
