I could imagine people being given their incomes for the
purpose not only of food, clothing and shelter but to develop capitalization for
their own entrepreneurial activities.
Or to pursue whatever their star happens to be.
For those who have no star or no entrepreneurial ability, a basic income.
They can't help being born what they are, but they are part of society.
For those with a special ability, help them cultivate it; help them take it as
far as they can.
Ed
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 5:25
PM
Subject: Re: [Futurework] FW Basic Income
sites
Within the context of capitalization. I
could imagine people being given their incomes for the purpose not only of
food, clothing and shelter but to develop capitalization for their own
entrepreneurial activities. Of course you would have to train out
the "get the most for the least" mentality that would just take the money and
run. Artists are always in need of seed money for the work
that they do. Grants are demeaning. Figuring out how
to encourage development of quality ideas and projects without making a
competition or giving it away to be spent on status goods would be an issue
but education works if you think hard enough about it and have the discipline
to complete it.
REH
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 12:29
PM
Subject: Re: [Futurework] FW Basic
Income sites
Chris:
> For Canada, that would be over $300 billion (about 5 Bill
Gateses worth -- > how many Bill Gateses does Canada have, btw?), that
is ~80 % of present > tax revenues. (So I guess the schools,
hospitals, roads, sewage system, > army etc. will have to be
maintained by unpaid volunteers then.) But > since the BI would
be an incentive not to work, the tax revenues would > fall
significantly. Bye bye Canadian forests and gas reserves...
It would not be like that, Chris. A basic income would likely
require a net budgetary expenditure, but what should happen, and probably
would happen is that many currently existing social programs would be
rolled into it. Nationally Canada has an Old Age Security program and
a Guaranteed Income Supplement, which provinces may top up. We have a
National Child Tax Benefit, with a significant amount for the first child
and only a little less for each additional child. So, leaving aside,
for the time being, the question of whether these expenditures are too
little or too much, we do in fact already have basic income programs for the
elderly and for children. Nationally also, we have pensions for the
disabled, and an insurance program for the unemployed. Where we
may be at our weakest is in the area of the various welfare/workfare
programs operated by the provinces. With a rightward shift in
provincial governments during the past couple of decades, people needing to
access these programs have come under considerable duress.
One would also have to consider the costs of operating and stocking all
of those food banks, shelters for the homeless and other charities directed
at the poor. While these facilities and programs currently operate out
of the voluntary sector, they do have to rent facilities, pay professional
administrators and occasionally doctors and lawyers, and buy food and other
goods and services. This would perhaps be one of the
trickiest and most sensitive areas to deal with because if you did
anything that threatened to close down charities you would be seen as
depriving middle class people of something they can rightly feel good
about. You could have a political storm on your hands.
I think governments would be better to leave this whole area alone until
they could clearly demonstrate that there was no longer a need for food
banks, shelters, snow suit funds and so forth.
A basic income program would have to look at all of the foregoing
initiatives and programs to see how many of them could be rolled into a
single BI program. The design of a program would have to consider
several matters:
- the value of a BI - most probably, low income cut-offs adjusted for
family size and location (rural/urban etc.) would come into play here;
- eligibility: a governing principle would very likely be that
anyone having an income higher than the established LICO values would not
be eligible;
- the extent to which a BI might consist of a direct payment versus
something like a negative income tax;
- the possibilities of making the BI, or aspects of it, premium based;
- making recipients feel that a BI is something they get as an
entitlement because they are a part of a good and caring society;
- yet making sure people didn't cheat because some inevitably will;
- etc.
As the foregoing suggests, I see an BI not as something everyone would
get, but as a top-up for people and families who cannot afford a relatively
decent lifestyle in a wealthy country. However, only after matters
like the above had been given thorough study would we know whether a BI
would be affordable or not. My guess (a matter of faith at this point)
is that it would be affordable without having to find five Bill Gates and
without having to chop down more trees that we are already chopping
down.
I believe I've listed some to the benefits of a BI in a previous
posting that I can't find right now, but they would include families better
able to cope, children better able to handle education, etc. If I have
time over the next few months, I may look at the BI question a little more
deeply.
Ed
----- Original Message ----- From: "Christoph
Reuss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 11:30 AM Subject:
Re: [Futurework] FW Basic Income sites
> Thomas Lunde
wrote: > > Well, Chris, you got me - sloppy analogy. Let me
try a different one. We > > have a benefit for children called
the Child Tax Benefit. Depending on the > > age of the
child and the number of children in the family - every parent is >
> eligible and I would say there is a 99% participation rate. Now
note that > > their is no income eligibility. The
millionaire's child is as eligible as > > the pauper's
child. However, this has to be declared as income on the > >
yearly income tax filing and for low income families they get to
keep all > > the benefit of about $2000 per child while the
affluent having to add this > > to their income find that the
benefit is taxed back. The end result is the > > poor get
the benefit and the rich - while they are rich and it is
not always > > a permanent state, end up not getting the
benefit. > > The BI Canada website (recommended by Sally)
says: > "Income tax would be paid from the first pound,
dollar, franc or mark of > extra income, but the
basic income itself would not be taxable." > This sounds like
everyone, rich or poor, can fully keep the BI
(untaxed). > > > > I see a way for a Basic Income to
work in which everyone gets a monthly > > cheque or weekly and for
the poor, they get to keep the Basic Income, while > > the more
affluent find that it is revenue neutral in the sense they
get the > > benefit on a monthly/weekly basis to use but at the
end of the year, they > > would repay the benefit while paying
there taxes > > But even if you change the rules as described
above, this system ends up > penalizing work (taxing work but not the
BI). How can you solve the > production problem --and keep it
solved-- with a society of non-workers ? > Worse: who, if not workers,
is supposed to pay the taxes to fund the BI ? > > > > I
think a Basic Income does represent going to the root of the
problem which > > is an adequate redistribution of wealth so
that all citizens benefit from > > the wealth of the country -
not just the successful capitalists or overpaid > >
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
executives. > > Now I understand why you said it's a Canadian
solution... "The wealth of > the country" probably refers to
timber, oil&gas, and in the sell-out of > natural resources, you
want to distribute it to all Canadians instead of > just a few
managers of the sell-out. > > However, plundering forests and
fossil fuels is not a sustainable solution, > and it offers no
model for countries who lack natural resources
to plunder. > > > > > Going back to school or
building a house with a GBI ?? How many thousand > > >
dollars per month are you thinking of ? > > > > If you
follow the Basic Income web addresses that Sally posted a
few days > > ago and went to the United States web site, you
will see them talking > > $25,000 a year. A few years ago, I
worked out a Basic Income based on the > > governments budget
with a figure of $10,000 per person per year. > > For Canada,
that would be over $300 billion (about 5 Bill Gateses worth -- > how
many Bill Gateses does Canada have, btw?), that is ~80 % of present >
tax revenues. (So I guess the schools, hospitals, roads, sewage
system, > army etc. will have to be maintained by unpaid volunteers
then.) But > since the BI would be an incentive not to work, the
tax revenues would > fall significantly. Bye bye Canadian
forests and gas reserves... > > > > I know the average
knee jerk reaction to the family of eight in that many > > women
would opt for 8 children and $80,000 a year. So what? It is
damn > > hard work to raise eight children and I have read
statistics that each child > > costs the parent $250,000 to
raise a child in a middle class environment and > > through
University. > > Including through University, i.e. you're
talking about the first 25 years > of life, times the BI of
$10,000/year gives exactly $250,000 ! But who said > that
they'll send all children to University, especially if the kids can >
live on the BI without working anyway ? So you'll end up with
an incentive > to breed like rabbits and produce school drop-outs
with no incentive or > desire to work or go to University. In a
society of uneducated mostly > non-working people, plundering the
country's natural resources is indeed > the only option that
remains... Canada the Saudi-Arabia of the North ? > >
Chris > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >
SpamWall: Mail to this addy is deleted unread unless it contains
the keyword > "igve". > > >
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