True that. And that'd be an interesting idea... if there was someone around
honestly willing to try out the designs I would have no problem working on
this with them. I mention slowing it down though because you would have to
hear the sound and react accordingly... in typical fighting games, I have to
react instantly. I can't wait for the sound of a shoryuken and then block...
the input frames don't allow that in a game. What you're suggesting, is the
sound playing, and the player having the appropriate time to block which
would logically be about a half second, and that to me would be a detrament
to the game's pace, because then all a player would probably do out of
caution is wait for the player to attack, thus never going on the offense.
As to having differently positioned attack sounds, the only thing you would
need to know is that it was a jumping kick. As you said, fighting is not an
exact science, and one doesn't need to hear just how deep the kick is...
that's a visual aspect of it which isn't necessary if developing a purely
audio fighter, since the only reason that it happens to be possible is
because the sprights are there to have that measured. In an audio fighter
though it really wouldn't matter, but a good sound for low attacks would be
workable, since that would be the only sound you would need to block low.
You said that you can't instantly react to a move in a video game if you
aren't sighted... this may be true, however, you couldn't do that in an
audio game either unless you had enough delay between the sounds of the
attack coming out and attack landing. But this would be a problem of its own
considering that one has to time combos properly. I'm sure you know what a
combo is, but I'll define it anyway for those who are watching this
discussion from the sidelines as it's a critical piece of information in
fighting games.
A combo is, basically, a string of hits. However, it's a string of hits
during which the opponent cannot react in any way after the first hit. A god
example is Ryu's jumping roundhouse kick, followed by his crouching fierce
punch, his fierce shoryuken canceled into his shinkuhadouken in SF 4. That
is the example because, as stated, after the opponent cannot block or
counter after that jumping kick if it hits them.. However, if they block the
jumping kick, they leave the opponent with two options. One, they will drop
the combo to save time, which sometimes happens. Or, as I myself like to do,
they will finish it in what is called a block string, which takes away a
smaller amount of damage due to the block, but still left them unable to do
anything until the string was finished. That's also another problem in
developing a fighter, you have to make the combo system work and not just
program inputs to chain together, otherwise you will have tons and tons of
infinites, if you know what that is. I'm actually quite curious as to what
could be done about that, since I have no knowledge of programming. Games
with graphics use frames to determine the combos possibilities and
damage-scaling, but I'm not sure how that could be done purely on an audio
basis.
I see what you're getting at, but I think the problem is what you're trying
to do is convey information that just isn't there. In audio it doesn't
matter whether the kick is vertical or horrizontal or how much of an angle
it has. Whether it's high or low is the only thing of any consequence, and
although we want to convey as much information as possible that information
just isn't there to provide anyway. All that there is is there are two
characters with different movesets fighting it out. Character details can be
worked out, but there's no basis to work on whether one kick is a spinning
heel sweep or a hapkido flying side kick. That's really up to the player's
imagination here... that's all a description of the moves would do. And I
didn't mean complexity as in hard to understand... I meant complexity as too
many audio sounds to memorize is just what the blind community has right
now, no matter what information is given. I in theory as the programmer
could have six different sounds for six different variations of the same
kick. One for upward-hitting, one for jump-ins, one for sweeps, onr for a
diagonal doward dive kick and one standing forward roundhouse. But some
games already do that... and the reason a lot of blind people stay away from
mainstream games is not just memorization of menus, but the complexity that
comes with these games. Blind people don't want to work while playing a
game, and a fighting game that would be simple to you and me would have so
many sounds most blind people would say that it has too many sounds to be
accessible. At least, that's what I see on lists and forums dealing wth this
matter. I'm curious to see what other ideas are in your head though... you
have me intrigued and quite interested since again, I've never really sceen
a need for it... and while I find it unnecessary, it's nevertheless
interesting to have that discussion, because I see people who talk all the
time about having an audio version of mortal kombat, an audio version of a
fighting game... and all of it just irritates me because those people don't
come up with the reasons and ideas you do, they just say they want it,
because it'd be easier to play. The truth is, any fighting that is made
well, audio or video, will have the same information, hopefully, and thus be
just as complex...
----- Original Message -----
From: "dark" <d...@xgam.org>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] audio fighting game was: Re: Game accessibility
was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
Hi clemment.
As I said, currently I just am not convinced you get enough information
about what moves are happening. yes, you can learn them, but you couldn't
instantly identify them.
a vertical position sound would not be exact, but would at least let you
know where a move was hitting, and thus give you a better idea what was
going on.
As for it being too complex, well I really don't see the problem there.
you already have different hit soundds in streeetfighter for the use of
light, medium, and heavy attacks, this would just be a question of using a
similar system for attacks pointed at the head, abdoman, or legs of your
character.
Of course it wouldn't be an exact system, but fighting isn't an exact
science, it would however let you know where to block.
there would also bbe no need to slow it down either.
As to positional audio, as I said from what I've noticed thus far the
positional audio in the game is absolute, not relative.
if you and the opponent are both on the left of the arena, you here both!
sets of sounds to the left, not yours in the center and your opponents to
the left relative to his/her position.
My suggestions were made to give a blind player as much access to
information during a match of a game they'd never played before as a
sighted player, and were meant with that aime.
Beware the grue!
Dark.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clement Chou" <chou.clem...@gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 6:14 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] audio fighting game was: Re: Game accessibility
was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii game for the blind!
Hmm. I've been looking at your ideas and I think it's an interesting
list... but to be honest the only one I think needs to be in is the one
about projectiles having extended sounds. There are fighters that already
do the position thing. As to projectiles, well, though I think they
should be extended, I think that the time between the launch of a
projectile and its connection to either the character or the character's
blocking is frankly enough to tell the distance between one character and
the other. As to your other comments...
3: A universal system of hit sounds to indicate the relative vertical
position of a move.
This would only be necessary for jump-in attacks, and I think there would
be no possible way for audio to be detailed enough to cue the angle
without being so obvious that it adds unnecessary beeps and other sounds.
that would detract from the game. As to sweeps, uppercuts and whatnot, if
you were to add sounds for each attack, you would have to separate them
for players to react in time, which would slow down the game at best,
since you would have to hear the sound and then react to it, which is not
what fighting games are about. Rather, fighting games are about
reactions, but more about quick reflexes to unexpected maneuvers, and
with audio cues, I just can't see how it would be possible to keep that
fast, intense pace.
4: Ducking sound/stand up .
Well, as it is, one can't duck in a fighting game, but I think crouching
would be the same. Though I actually agree now... a sound would be a good
idea. Though in a traditional fighting game, the only attacks that don't
hit crouches are attacks that hit upwards, like a shoryuken, though the
only reason people would usually use them is because someone is jumping
in towards them.
5: more obvious footstep and taunt sounds.
Nifty idea, but imo it isn't really necessary, since attacks can also
judge distance well enough, along with attack sounds coming up. The
reason I mention all this is because I don't want too much audio
detail... it'd be confusing to have to keep track of that much audio and
strategize at the same time. Just me though, I like the sounds that are
necessary and the few more that lend atmosphere.
6: Obvious knock down and get up sounds.
Already in every modern fighting game in existence. lol. In both cases.
Someone thought of that before you did. grins.
7: hit against corner sound.
Huh. I dunno about that one. haha Not sure what could realistically be
put in, since traditionally we don't have walls or rings, just the edge
of the screen as a stage. I think if we put in footsteps, we can just
have them stop at the edge. Seems like a fair solution to that problem.
8: description of moves.
Hmm. I'm not sure if that should be in the game itself... a command list
is just a quick reference for moves, not a detailed tutorial... I think
we should keep that in the documentation, along with your 10th comment
which is description of characters which I also think should be in the
docs.
As to stage descriptions and ambiance sounds... I think that the sounds
themselves could describe them... and fighting games can be playable as
long as the ambiance sounds aren't too loud. I don't know what kind of
stage description could be on the screen because it would have to sound
natural, and any description that I can come up with at least sounds
pretty dull in a short form. lol
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
