Without the rail, you have no reference or guide as you make your approach to the fowl line. You don't know where you are standing, or where to move to, if you want to shoot cross alley for corner pins or for other combinations.

--
If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben" <gamehead...@aol.co.uk>
To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] weii bowling cannotbe playedindependentlybytheblind- Re: Accessable gamesfor theplaystation three.


Well if you're going to be good, at least in my experience, the first thing
to do is to iliminate the bowling rail completely.  But that's just me.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Charles
Rivard
Sent: 03 February 2013 22:37
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] weii bowling cannot be
playedindependentlybytheblind- Re: Accessable games for theplaystation
three.

I guess I want more than a lot of other people when it comes to
accessibility.  It is true that blind people need sighted help when at the
bowling center. Making sure that the rail is correctly set, telling us the remaining pins after the first ball, and so on. But if I know the result of
each shot, I keep my own score on an abacus so that I know how I'm doing.
When I was on a sanctioned league, I carried a 110 average. No bumpers were
used.  But I did my own aiming by using a bowling rail.  I would want at
least that much from any game I play.

--
If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling
errors!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clement Chou" <chou.clem...@gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2013 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] weii bowling cannot be
playedindependentlybytheblind- Re: Accessable games for theplaystation
three.


Fair enough. But I guess the mindset I have is that when I play games,
I almost always play them with other people... console games are just
more fun when there are friends around. By that definition, Rock Band
isn't accessible either, since you can't know how much you got for
points and whatnot at the end of a song. But everyone has their own
opinion, I guess.
I just grew up on console games so it's never really mattered that
much to me. I've always believed that if I could access most of the
features of the game, then as far as I'm concerned it's accessible.
Though to be quite honest, I never really liked sports games anyway...
for things like bowling especially. I'd rather participate in the real
thing, like going bowling for real.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Rivard" <wee1s...@fidnet.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2013 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] weii bowling cannot be
playedindependentlybytheblind - Re: Accessable games for
theplaystation three.


To me, it does matter than I cannot know the remaining pins or accurately

aim, and what's the point of bowling if you don't know your score frame
by frame?  While bowling is a sport that is more fun with a crowd, I
enjoy it as a challenging game of skill, and if skill cannot be used, or
the results cannot be known, I'm not satisfied with the game.

To me, useable feedback is being able to accomplish the tasks given above

with no sighted help.

A good example of a good bowling game is Tenpin Alley from

www.draconisentertainment.com

It gives the feedback I need to enjoy a game of bowling, plus, others can

play as well.  Everyone is on equal ground when playing this bowling
game.

---
Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Clement Chou" <chou.clem...@gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2013 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] weii bowling cannot be played
independentlybytheblind - Re: Accessable games for the playstation three.


I can do everything you said, other than hitting what's left and knowing
what my final score is. But why would it matter... because I would only
play it when friends were around, and would know final scores regardless?

Again, I think it comes down to personal definitions of accessible... I
am not trying to provoke an argument, only to discuss. I don't deal with
the wii as much anymore, I find my ps3 much more accessible. And what is
your definition of usable feedback? My definition is the clicking of the
system as I move through the menus, and in the ps3's case, the fact that
they don't wrap. My definition of usable feedback when playing bowling is

judging crowd sounds, and when friends are around, what they tel me. So
again, down to personal perspective.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Rivard" <wee1s...@fidnet.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2013 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] weii bowling cannot be played independently
bytheblind - Re: Accessable games for the playstation three.


Could you come into a room, turn the unit on, choose a game without
hunting for it by trial and error, roll the first ball at the desired
spot by knowing your target instead of randomly throwing it, know what
pins remain (if any), use skill rather than guesswork to aim at them,
and know your score after the first frame is over?  Could you tell me
your final score after the tenth frame had ended, all with no sighted
help? If you can play the bowling game with no sighted help at all,
knowing everything you need to in order to play the game completely
through, then I would say that it is accessible, and be interested. If

you cannot, then the game is not accessible.  Console and game
operation by guesswork does not, in any way, equate to doing so using
accurate and useable feedback. If you don't get the feedback needed to

operate and play the games, it's not accessible.  In a sense, it would
be like operating your computer without a screen reader if you are
totally blind. You could conceivably do it by guessing at your results

as you type.  You could go through the correct motions such as typing
what you need to, but did it work? Without the necessary feedback, you

don't know.

--
If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling
errors!
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian McNamara" <ianmcnamar...@gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2013 2:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] weii bowling cannot be played independently by
theblind - Re: Accessable games for the playstation three.


Exactly On our whiee when we had it I had the highest score on the
bowling on our console and no one could break it including sighted
people.

Ian McNamara
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