Thanks Ted, these are all important points that require responses. I have CC'ed the dev@tez.i.a.o list, where I hope the Tez community can respond to your points below in detail.
Guys, please see Ted's comments below and please try to address them in light of the recent [DISCUSS] Graduation thread I raised. It's fine if the answer to some of the points is (1) we plan on addressing them by X date, with Y action; (2) we don't think this is a valid point *because* ..*explanation*; (3) you didn't consider this factoid _here_, etc. I'm hoping the other mentors on the project can step up and have some insight into the below. I look forward to the discussion. Cheers, Chris -----Original Message----- From: Ted Dunning <ted.dunn...@gmail.com> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <general@incubator.apache.org> Date: Monday, June 23, 2014 12:12 AM To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <general@incubator.apache.org> Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment] >On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) < >chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote: > >> >Regardless of whether it is an explicit requirement to have some >>specific >> >level of diversity, there is a requirement that the group demonstrate >> >community building. >> >> I'm also sympathetic to this: you can see my thread here where >>originally >> I didn't >> think much had been going on until I explicitly checked the lists and >>went >> through >> the archives and saw ~7 IIRC PPMC members/committers added since >>entering >> [1]. That's >> community building regardless of what affiliation those new members came >> from. >> >> The other metrics and statistics (health of the mailing lists/open >> discussions have >> been increasing; releases have been made, etc.) are all there and >>outlined >> in [1]. > > >As I read the private list, there has been absolutely no effort at adding >committers until last month when the topic of graduation has come up. >There >is no substantive discussion on the list of the potential committers, but >simply rather perfunctory +1 votes. > >In reading the thread about whether there should be/is a diversity >requirement, I come to a bit of a different conclusion as well. What I >see >in the discussion is that the participants seem to agree that > >- there should not be a simple count-based diversity measure because this >would dissuade valuable commercial contributions > >- the chance/likelihood of project failure due to a dominant commercial >contributor pulling out should not be considered since project dormancy or >retirement isn't a bad thing. Better to try and fail than never try. > >- there is clear recognition of the risk of commercial companies inventing >a project not so much because of a desire to build community but rather as >a marketing maneuver. > >- there is no mention of the problems that have arisen in the Hadoop >groups >relative to use of groups and Apache trademarks for marketing purposes. > >I don't want to impute motives to actions since I cannot know what others >hold in their hearts, but I don't see evidence of efforts to really build >the community. There was one meat-space meetup a year ago. There have >been a few presentations of what Tez is. > >I do see a fair number of public statements of the form "Tez is >Hortonworks >answer to Impala" or "The future of Hadoop runs on Tez", most of which >seem >to come out of Hortonworks' marketing department. > >In looking at the dev list back to September of last year, I see a large >number of procedural messages (votes, results, release mechanics), a few >user questions (NPE in such and so, how do I install) and very few design >discussions. There was one thread last November about combiners, another >in January about map parallelism, and one more in March about reducer >parallelism. To me this looks a lot like a project where all design >discussions are occurring off-list. > >What I would like to see would include > >- a strong effort on the part of Tez to bring all design and >implementation >discussions to the list, > >- continuous community engagement efforts such as weekly hangouts in >different timezones to help new contributors understand what is happening >technically in the project in an interactive setting > >- lots of public talks focussed on how outsiders can contribute and how >the >design works > >- cross posting on related projects offering cross pollination >opportunities. Such related groups might be Drill, Optiq, Tajo and Spark. > These postings would say things like "how could you guys help us with >Tez" >or "Tez has this and such, would that be helpful to you guys". > >- inviting contributors from related projects to give technical >presentations in the context of Tez > >Now, my searches have been fairly cursory and could have missed important >activities, but I have a bit of a hard time believing that I have missed >major efforts along these lines. > >Based on this evidence, it really does look to me like Tez is a purely >commercial development masquerading as an Apache community. > >I agree that superficial diversity metrics are counter-productive, but I >also assert that there isn't any obvious evidence of serious community >building here and there is significant evidence that building community >isn't even the point of the project. That *is* a substantive issue >relative to graduation. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
