Let me repeat that my desired outcome here is Tez graduation. It is just that I want to see Tez graduate as a viable project.
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 12:43 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) < chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote: > Thanks Ted, these are all important points that require responses. I have > CC'ed the dev@tez.i.a.o > list, where I hope the Tez community can respond to your points below in > detail. > > Guys, please see Ted's comments below and please try to address them in > light of the > > recent [DISCUSS] Graduation thread I raised. It's fine if the answer to > some of the > points is (1) we plan on addressing them by X date, with Y action; (2) we > don't think > this is a valid point *because* ..*explanation*; (3) you didn't consider > this factoid > _here_, etc. > > I'm hoping the other mentors on the project can step up and have some > insight > into the below. I look forward to the discussion. > > > Cheers, > Chris > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ted Dunning <ted.dunn...@gmail.com> > Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <general@incubator.apache.org> > Date: Monday, June 23, 2014 12:12 AM > To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <general@incubator.apache.org> > Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment] > > >On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) < > >chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote: > > > >> >Regardless of whether it is an explicit requirement to have some > >>specific > >> >level of diversity, there is a requirement that the group demonstrate > >> >community building. > >> > >> I'm also sympathetic to this: you can see my thread here where > >>originally > >> I didn't > >> think much had been going on until I explicitly checked the lists and > >>went > >> through > >> the archives and saw ~7 IIRC PPMC members/committers added since > >>entering > >> [1]. That's > >> community building regardless of what affiliation those new members came > >> from. > >> > >> The other metrics and statistics (health of the mailing lists/open > >> discussions have > >> been increasing; releases have been made, etc.) are all there and > >>outlined > >> in [1]. > > > > > >As I read the private list, there has been absolutely no effort at adding > >committers until last month when the topic of graduation has come up. > >There > >is no substantive discussion on the list of the potential committers, but > >simply rather perfunctory +1 votes. > > > >In reading the thread about whether there should be/is a diversity > >requirement, I come to a bit of a different conclusion as well. What I > >see > >in the discussion is that the participants seem to agree that > > > >- there should not be a simple count-based diversity measure because this > >would dissuade valuable commercial contributions > > > >- the chance/likelihood of project failure due to a dominant commercial > >contributor pulling out should not be considered since project dormancy or > >retirement isn't a bad thing. Better to try and fail than never try. > > > >- there is clear recognition of the risk of commercial companies inventing > >a project not so much because of a desire to build community but rather as > >a marketing maneuver. > > > >- there is no mention of the problems that have arisen in the Hadoop > >groups > >relative to use of groups and Apache trademarks for marketing purposes. > > > >I don't want to impute motives to actions since I cannot know what others > >hold in their hearts, but I don't see evidence of efforts to really build > >the community. There was one meat-space meetup a year ago. There have > >been a few presentations of what Tez is. > > > >I do see a fair number of public statements of the form "Tez is > >Hortonworks > >answer to Impala" or "The future of Hadoop runs on Tez", most of which > >seem > >to come out of Hortonworks' marketing department. > > > >In looking at the dev list back to September of last year, I see a large > >number of procedural messages (votes, results, release mechanics), a few > >user questions (NPE in such and so, how do I install) and very few design > >discussions. There was one thread last November about combiners, another > >in January about map parallelism, and one more in March about reducer > >parallelism. To me this looks a lot like a project where all design > >discussions are occurring off-list. > > > >What I would like to see would include > > > >- a strong effort on the part of Tez to bring all design and > >implementation > >discussions to the list, > > > >- continuous community engagement efforts such as weekly hangouts in > >different timezones to help new contributors understand what is happening > >technically in the project in an interactive setting > > > >- lots of public talks focussed on how outsiders can contribute and how > >the > >design works > > > >- cross posting on related projects offering cross pollination > >opportunities. Such related groups might be Drill, Optiq, Tajo and Spark. > > These postings would say things like "how could you guys help us with > >Tez" > >or "Tez has this and such, would that be helpful to you guys". > > > >- inviting contributors from related projects to give technical > >presentations in the context of Tez > > > >Now, my searches have been fairly cursory and could have missed important > >activities, but I have a bit of a hard time believing that I have missed > >major efforts along these lines. > > > >Based on this evidence, it really does look to me like Tez is a purely > >commercial development masquerading as an Apache community. > > > >I agree that superficial diversity metrics are counter-productive, but I > >also assert that there isn't any obvious evidence of serious community > >building here and there is significant evidence that building community > >isn't even the point of the project. That *is* a substantive issue > >relative to graduation. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > >
