Thanks Dave, Henry, Ming for the discussions so far. Please allow me to try to dissect and summarize the discussion points and answers so far:
D0: Release process - The PPMC has a well document release process[1] and has proj D1: Use of github and dev@ - We follow the principle “everything happens (also) happens on dev@” - Important dev related github issues(with tag RFC, COMMUNITY, VOTE) are synced to dev@ - Decisions and discussions still and will continue happening via the dev@ list, but we also understand that different people in the community may choose to use other interface to interact, just like existing practice of other ASF projects’ usage of JIRA, knowing that things will be mirrored to dev@ - The use of github for community conversations, while still following D1: Recognition of reviewer - A reviewer is not an official role, and PPMC made it very clear via explicit disclaimer, no vote is carried out. - It is more like a social mechanism, rather than a formal status. There is no power granted to a reviewer, except for putting the person’s name on a list. - A committer can also choose to solicit reviews from anyone, everyone is welcomed to review. - Just like the (un-official) maturity model, the PPMC believes it provides useful (optional) information for committers and PPMC, with a goal to help growth and recognition of candidates early, rather than a gatekeeper. - The idea of recognizing reviewers was discussed in IPMC during the initial proposal[2], and voted on by the TVM community[3]. D2: Community - A PPMC member strives to only nominate a person from another org. As a result, we might see people who interact more with the broader community being nominated early, and the order of nomination does not strictly follow the order of raw stats(which we think are related but do not represent merit). - All contributions are considered. - We understand that different communities can set different calibrations for merit[4]. The PPMC has been doing so in an organic way via healthy Apache discussions, recognizing potential candidates early, and welcoming contributors from diverse backgrounds. - Regardless of the procedural choices in the above. The PPMC actively discusses, and brings in new committers from diverse backgrounds. The community grows healthily and is quite vibrant. New committers are being brought up every month and the list continues to grow. There is no “one way” to the Apache Way[5]. IMHO, one of the best parts about ASF is the trust bestowed to PMC under the common ground of the Apache way. The PPMC does not intend to suggest any of the above applies to other communities. What is common though, is that the PPMC will continue to encourage open communications(everything also happens in dev@), welcome new contributors from diverse backgrounds collectively, and build a healthy, independent and diverse community under the Apache Way. Thank you! ----- - [1] https://tvm.apache.org/docs/contribute/release_process - [2] https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/e2b1fe9ca76422ec80b146a6b120091f2419e2f1c27d57080f39cf6f%40%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E - [3] https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/c34b728f01d1030146594e47e0706cd1990ed731d06e3c179b7d501a%40%3Cdev.tvm.apache.org%3E - [4] https://apache.org/foundation/governance/pmcs.html#merit - [5] https://www.apache.org/theapacheway/ On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 4:42 PM Henry Saputra <henry.sapu...@gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks for the comments, Ming Wen. > > About the content of the list, it is not a problem and also not unusual on > changes sent to dev@ list. > Some Apache projects like MetaModel and during the early of Apache Flink > also have Github change sent to dev@ list. > Also some Apache projects have all JIRA updates send to dev@ list that > make > it also looks noisy. For example Apache Kylin and DLab. > You can check them out, and probably more Apache projects have similar > patterns of usage. > > If it is getting too noisy we could always move them to commits@ or other > separate list. It is up to the community. > But definitely not an issue or blocker. > > - Henry > > On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 4:34 PM Ming Wen <wenm...@apache.org> wrote: > > > > As per apache way, everything happens (also happens) on dev@tvm. We > try > > to > > > set up the mechanism to enable maximum participation from the > community, > > > while complying with ASF rules :) > > > The emails from the dev@tvm are also forwarded to the github thread. > > > > The mailing list seems to be a backup of github issues, even for > something > > as important as announcing a new committer [1] [2]. > > I am not sure if this is a problem, but I have not seen such an operation > > in other apache projects. > > > > [1] > > > > > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r17bdb633ec3ed1f8f80502705f9cc8cc642b189ab99cc2958847c1ac%40%3Cdev.tvm.apache.org%3E > > [2] https://github.com/apache/incubator-tvm/pull/4636 > > > > Thanks, > > Ming Wen, Apache APISIX & Apache SkyWalking > > Twitter: _WenMing > > > > > > Tianqi Chen <tqc...@apache.org> 于2020年8月28日周五 上午1:58写道： > > > > > Thank you Dave! > > > > > > (1) They have invented a new position between Contributor and Committer > > > > called “Reviewer”. I’m not sure why this was done. It seems to me > that > > > > these individuals should just become Committers. > > > > > > > > > > Reviewer is not an official position, but as a way for us to encourage > > > reviews and find potential candidates for committerships. > > > We use the following disclaimer which we sent during discussion a > > reviewer > > > case and not vote is carried out(to lower bar of entry) > > > > > > Background: A Reviewer is not an official role, the community use this > > > way to recognize potential committers early and bring them to the > > > project development. Given the reviewer role is not official, we will > > > only hold a discussion instead of a formal vote. We continue to follow > > > the community’s principle to only nominate someone from a different > > > organization. > > > > > > The recognition of (un-official) reviewer is voted by the community as > > part > > > of Apache transition plan > > > > > > > > > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/c34b728f01d1030146594e47e0706cd1990ed731d06e3c179b7d501a%40%3Cdev.tvm.apache.org%3E > > > > > > We strongly believe in nurturing contributions, welcome members to the > > > community, and help the community to grow organically under the Apache > > way. > > > The community is actively bringing in new committers, and we are doing > so > > > at a monthly rate. > > > To encourage diversity and healthy growth the PPMC members strive to > > make a > > > more diverse community by only nominating people from a different > > > organization. > > > So there could be cases where a person from my own organization that I > > > think should be nominated as a committer, but I wait until the person > get > > > recognized by a fellow PMC member > > > from another organization. This wait usually won't be too long. Even > > > better, the community members work together with each other, > > > since the most important factor is after all the community. > > > > > > (2) All discussions are threaded in GitHub and then reflected into the > > > > dev@tvm mailing list. I just find this strange. > > > > > > > > > > As per apache way, everything happens (also happens) on dev@tvm. We > try > > to > > > set up the mechanism to enable maximum participation from the > community, > > > while complying with ASF rules :) > > > The emails from the dev@tvm are also forwarded to the github thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, the discussion thread looks like a vote. Nothing is really > > > discussed > > > > about satisfying graduation requirements. > > > > > > > > Did TVM fill out a Maturity Model? > > > > > > > > > > Please see the maturity model here > > > > > > > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/18nyAH-fcptVezAxPQe6H3FeTKPRkujOp1tc1YRSPLok/edit?usp=sharing > > > The maturity model is attached as part of the community discussion as > > > well(inlined in the email when community model is mentioned. > > > > > > TQ > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 10:43 AM Dave Fisher <w...@apache.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 27, 2020, at 10:27 AM, Dave Fisher <w...@apache.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi - > > > > > > > > > > I am bothered by two things that TVM does. > > > > > > > > > > (1) They have invented a new position between Contributor and > > Committer > > > > called “Reviewer”. I’m not sure why this was done. It seems to me > that > > > > these individuals should just become Committers. > > > > > > > > Looking a little more closely it seems that Reviewers ought to be PMC > > > > Members. Please explain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (2) All discussions are threaded in GitHub and then reflected into > > the > > > > dev@tvm mailing list. I just find this strange. > > > > > > > > > > Also, the discussion thread looks like a vote. Nothing is really > > > > discussed about satisfying graduation requirements. > > > > > > > > > > Did TVM fill out a Maturity Model? > > > > > > > > I see you held that back until the VOTE thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Aug 24, 2020, at 2:04 PM, Tianqi Chen <tqc...@apache.org> > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> Edit the subject so that it is obvious as a discussion thread in > > > > >> general@incubator. > > > > >> > > > > >> TQ > > > > >> > > > > >> FYI, following a heated discussion with great support from our > > > mentors, > > > > >>> committers and community members. > > > > >>> The Apache(incubating) TVM is starting a vote to graduate as TLP > > > > >>> > > > > >>> - [1] community DISCUSS thread: > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r91b8f469c6a54769869bb2435b7334a28bcff885ae078ab5612dae00%40%3Cdev.tvm.apache.org%3E > > > > >>> - [2] voting thread: > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/rd5b8eefe49af09a2d0913758a5e5737b3fdb9072bc0becf4a2b2c7ee%40%3Cdev.tvm.apache.org%3E > > > > >>> > > > > >>> TQ > > > > >>> > > > > >>> ---------- Forwarded message --------- > > > > >>> From: Tianqi Chen <notificati...@github.com> > > > > >>> Date: Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 1:51 PM > > > > >>> Subject: [apache/incubator-tvm] [VOTE] Apache TVM Graduation > > (#6332) > > > > >>> To: apache/incubator-tvm <incubator-...@noreply.github.com> > > > > >>> Cc: Subscribed <subscri...@noreply.github.com> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Dear Community: > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Thanks to everyone who participated in the discussion about > > > > >>> graduation[1]. This is a formal voting thread for Apache TVM’s > > > > graduation. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> If this vote passes, the next step would be to submit the > > resolution > > > > below > > > > >>> to the Incubator PMC, who would vote on sending it on to the > Apache > > > > Board. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Vote: > > > > >>> [ ] +1 - Recommend graduation of Apache TVM as a TLP > > > > >>> [ ] 0 - I don't feel strongly about it, but don't object > > > > >>> [ ] -1 - Do not recommend graduation of Apache TVM because... > > > > >>> > > > > >>> The VOTE will open for at least 72 hours. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> This thread is mirrored to dev@, please vote by replying to this > > > > thread > > > > >>> > > > > >>> ------------------ > > > > >>> The TVM project has been an Apache incubator project for nearly > 1.5 > > > > year > > > > >>> now. In the past one and half year, the community grew healthily > > > under > > > > the > > > > >>> Apache way. Some highlights include: > > > > >>> > > > > >>> - A successful developer conference that we are continuing to > host > > > this > > > > >>> year > > > > >>> - Great community growth, as of now, the community contains 16 > PPMC > > > > >>> members, 31 committers, from a diverse list of organizations. We > > are > > > > >>> actively growing the list monthly. > > > > >>> - Active contributions: ~ 150 PRs merged each month. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> The community has produced two formal apache releases. While we > > could > > > > also > > > > >>> wait until more releases. We feel that the community is mature > > enough > > > > that > > > > >>> we can push for graduation as it is, and continue to push for > high > > > > quality > > > > >>> releases concurrently. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> For reference, we also put together a maturity evaluation doc[2] > > > under > > > > the > > > > >>> Apache maturity model. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Some additional note about the resolution below: the current PPMC > > > will > > > > be > > > > >>> transitioned to the PMC. We have invited all the mentors in the > > > current > > > > >>> PPMC who like to stay involved. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> ----------------- > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Establish the Apache TVM Project > > > > >>> > > > > >>> WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best > > interests > > > of > > > > >>> the Foundation and consistent with the Foundation's purpose to > > > > establish > > > > >>> a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and > > > > maintenance > > > > >>> of open-source software, for distribution at no charge to the > > public, > > > > >>> related to compilation of machine learning models to run on a > wide > > > > range > > > > >>> of hardware platforms... > > > > >>> > > > > >>> NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that a Project Management > Committee > > > > >>> (PMC), to be known as the "Apache TVM Project", be and hereby is > > > > >>> established pursuant to Bylaws of the Foundation; and be it > further > > > > >>> > > > > >>> RESOLVED, that the Apache TVM Project be and hereby is > responsible > > > for > > > > the > > > > >>> creation and maintenance of software related to compilation of > > > machine > > > > >>> learning models to run on a wide range of hardware platforms; and > > be > > > it > > > > >>> further > > > > >>> > > > > >>> RESOLVED, that the office of "Vice President, Apache TVM" be and > > > > >>> hereby is created, the person holding such office to serve at the > > > > >>> direction of the Board of Directors as the chair of the Apache > TVM > > > > >>> Project, and to have primary responsibility for management of the > > > > >>> projects within the scope of responsibility of the Apache TVM > > > > >>> Project; and be it further > > > > >>> > > > > >>> RESOLVED, that the persons listed immediately below be and hereby > > are > > > > >>> appointed to serve as the initial members of the Apache TVM > > Project: > > > > >>> > > > > >>> * Tianqi Chen <tqc...@apache.org> > > > > >>> * Timothy Chen <tnac...@apache.org> > > > > >>> * Zhi Chen <z...@apache.org> > > > > >>> * Byung-Gon Chun <bgc...@apache.org> > > > > >>> * Ziheng Jiang <zih...@apache.org> > > > > >>> * Furkan Kamaci <kam...@apache.org> > > > > >>> * YiZhi Liu <liuyi...@apache.org> > > > > >>> * Masahiro Masuda <mas...@apache.org> > > > > >>> * Thierry Moreau <mor...@apache.org> > > > > >>> * Jared Roesch <jroe...@apache.org> > > > > >>> * Henry Saputra <hsapu...@apache.org> > > > > >>> * Haichen Shen <haic...@apache.org> > > > > >>> * Markus Weimer <wei...@apache.org> > > > > >>> * Eddie Yan <e...@apache.org> > > > > >>> * Lianmin Zheng <lmzh...@apache.org> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that Tianqi Chen be > > appointed > > > > to > > > > >>> the office of Vice President, Apache TVM, to serve in accordance > > > > >>> with and subject to the direction of the Board of Directors and > the > > > > >>> Bylaws of the Foundation until death, resignation, retirement, > > > removal > > > > >>> or disqualification, or until a successor is appointed; and be it > > > > >>> further > > > > >>> > > > > >>> RESOLVED, that the Apache TVM Project be and hereby is tasked > with > > > > >>> the migration and rationalization of the Apache Incubator TVM > > > > >>> podling; and be it further > > > > >>> > > > > >>> RESOLVED, that all responsibilities pertaining to the Apache > > > Incubator > > > > >>> TVM podling encumbered upon the Apache Incubator PMC are > hereafter > > > > >>> Discharged. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> - [1] > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/r91b8f469c6a54769869bb2435b7334a28bcff885ae078ab5612dae00%40%3Cdev.tvm.apache.org%3E > > > > >>> - [2] > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/18nyAH-fcptVezAxPQe6H3FeTKPRkujOp1tc1YRSPLok/edit?usp=sharing > > > > >>> > > > > >>> -- > > > > >>> You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. > > > > >>> Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub: > > > > >>> https://github.com/apache/incubator-tvm/issues/6332 > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
