@ Lucas Wagner: Some very good points, I disagree with this statement, however:
If we had more community servers we'd just have more 2fort/dustbowl/turbine > 24/7 servers. Isn't there enough of these already? Prior to quickplay, there was a plethora of "rotation" servers out there hosted by the community (there are still some, but their numbers continue to dwindle). Our community, for example, ran a CP rotation server (both stock and custom maps), a CTF rotation server (all maps EXCEPT 2Fort, to include over a dozen custom maps) along with half a dozen other "rotation" servers. All of those servers were very popular, and stayed full 18+ hours per day. Once Valve made their drastic quickplay changes, all but our payload rotation servers started a long, slow slide in population (almost all players eventually move on to new games, and if new players can't find you, then your server will slowly die out). There are a number of factors that contribute to that, but I can tell you as a server operator running TF2 servers since 2008: - Obviously, any servers that host anything but Valve maps are immediately at a major disadvantage, since any custom maps immediately removes a server from quickplay. - EVERY server loses players during/after a map change (even Valve servers). The huge difference here that allows Valve to host so many rotation servers is that they have an enormous and insurmountable (under the current policies/UI design) advantage in terms of player traffic, and they feed their servers a constant steam of new players. Community server operators were forced into so many "24/7" one-map server because those are virtually the only ones that stay full. That's also the reason only the most popular maps get the majority of community representation. - This has also resulted in all "non-payload" game modes (CP, CTF, PLR) experiencing an unnatural and artificial decrease in popularity. For it's first 5 years, our CP rotation server was one of the most popular servers online, frequenting appearing in the top 25 TF2 servers played. As of last year, we were forced to shut it down due to dwindling player traffic. Consider this: If quickplay didn't exist, and all the BS exploits were disabled (fake players/clients, etc. that the bad apples used to trick players) so everyone was on a level playing field, do you honestly think that Valve's un-moderated, racist-filled, non-team oriented servers would really be able to compete with community servers? I'm sure there would be some players that still wanted that kind of environment, but I guarantee that once most players experienced a well-run, competitive, asshat-free moderated community server, they would never visit a Valve server again, and would probably be more inclined to become a long-term player. The thing is, there's a middle-ground here that would (I believe) satisfy everyone. A simple UI (and tweak to the underlying system) that has been suggested multiple times is this one: http://i.imgur.com/tAmWXj6.png That would satisfy both those that like things the way they are, and communities that would like more equitable treatment. For the life of me, I can't understand why Valve is so apathetic towards the idea - but that doesn't mean I'm going to stop asking ;-) On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 12:31 PM, Lucas Wagner <lgwag...@gmail.com> wrote: > Some observations that I've made that I haven't heard addressed by anyone > yet: > > - The game is 8 years old now. That's an extraordinarily long life for > a game. What is the end-game for TF2? Has Valve considered this? For > example, when they decide it's time to reallocate their hosted servers, > will they have given the community enough time to build a network of > servers to support the small but loyal followers of this game? Does Valve > care? Should they care? I don't know the answer. > - Valve servers, while deficient in many ways, do provide some much > needed variety. Community servers largely run a set of 4-5 stock maps that > people play on. You want to play something different, like plr_nightfall, > guess where you can play that? Valve servers only. It's nice, and it's been > one thing I've enjoyed about the switch. I can play something that's not > 2fort, dustbowl, turbine, hightower, etc. If we had more community servers > we'd just have more 2fort/dustbowl/turbine 24/7 servers. Isn't there enough > of these already? > > Full disclosure: I ran community servers with a few friends. They died at > the height of the problem. Our popular servers were 24/7 2fort, 24/7 > dustbowl, and 24/7 turbine. Eventually qp referrals required 18 people to > be on the server. We noticed that referrals stopped after 20 people, and > were too inconsistent to keep the server full. Our friends in another > community have succeeded since the big change, but they've had to resort to > rather elaborate measures to make it work. They have a full-time seeding > staff that is assigned shifts to keep servers populated 24/7. That sounds > like a job to me... > > Not sure all of that is related, but I'd be interested in hearing opinions > on those observations. > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 6:58 AM, Pat Stay <patsta...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> lol look at you. typical response paul, you are so predictable >> >> -hides from addressing issues involving him and his actions on behalf of >> his company that are in direct relation to the problem >> -brings up advertising in this thread telling people not to blame it for >> the problems, pointing to other things >> -i state exactly how advertising combined with those other things >> perpetuates the problem and how a large part of the community knows about >> your shady actions >> -you lecture me to stay on topic lol >> -you use motdgd in the third person as if you are not Paul Lewis, co >> owner and lead developer of MOTDgd >> >> you and your actions are a significant part of the problem and those >> before you, pinion, are to blame as well for allowing such negligence to go >> on. Instead of actually doing your job and monitoring your clients >> implementations, you sat back enjoying your fat stacks of cash while people >> exploited known bugs. You specifically are partially to blame because your >> company's only known direct affiliate happens to be one of the single >> biggest culprits of the initial issue that brought us here. ive watched you >> make subtle little comments every time advertising is talked about here in >> a negative light, so please dont act as if you aren't here trying to steer >> the topic away from ads every time it's brought up. Sure you have a couple >> of servers no one cares about so you are entitled to be here, just like I >> am. Take responsibility for your actions instead of hiding like a coward >> you degenerate thief. >> >> On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 6:35 AM, Pat Stay <patsta...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Sure, we can stay on topic >>> >>> >Paul ubyu....@gmail.com via >>> <https://support.google.com/mail/answer/1311182?hl=en> >>> list.valvesoftware.com >>> 2:49 PM (15 hours ago) >>> > >>> >to Half-Life >>> >Need I remind you, or anyone else, that ads weren't the sole problem. >>> The big problem was some large server farms sending false player >>> information to the master server, and servers not following quickplay rules. >>> >>> by this you must mean your affiliate partner who used to run 150 tf2 >>> idle servers that exploited false player information to no end and farmed >>> ads for your company motdgd. dont sit here acting like your shit ad system >>> wasnt part of the ongoing problem. people could farm 30,000 ads from you >>> per day using fake identities and text mode. but you knew that being a tf2 >>> community owner. so essentially you're right, its not the ads themselves >>> that are the problem its the people like you serving them fraudulently then >>> hiding behind some dead link email address trying to veer the topic away >>> from advertisements so no one knows you are one of the scumbags behind the >>> problem >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 6:11 AM, Paul <ubyu....@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> How about we stay on topic here? >>>> >>>> On 4 September 2015 at 10:42, Pat Stay <patsta...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >Paul ubyu....@gmail.com via >>>>> <https://support.google.com/mail/answer/1311182?hl=en> >>>>> list.valvesoftware.com >>>>> 6:47 AM (22 hours ago) >>>>> >to Half-Life >>>>> >Fact is I don't believe they care anymore, mostly motivated on ways >>>>> to make more profit than community support :(. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> irony, brought to you in part by the thieves of motdgd >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 6:37 PM, Alexander Corn <mc...@doctormckay.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I'm getting them as well, just set up a filter in Gmail to route >>>>>> those messages to the trash. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 6:33 PM, Paul <ubyu....@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Apologies for going off topic, but I keep getting spam from >>>>>>> different emails from someone called 'Amy Happy' via this mailing list. >>>>>>> Other than unsubscribing from this mailing list or changing email >>>>>>> address, >>>>>>> is there any way I can stop this spam mail being sent to me (I assume >>>>>>> others here are getting these messages to from her)? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3 September 2015 at 21:41, Ross Bemrose <rbemr...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are a few things added even just recently that are aimed >>>>>>>> squarely at community servers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> One big example of this is the Map Workshop. Valve servers don't >>>>>>>> use the map workshop... it exists solely to make it easier to run a >>>>>>>> community server without needing to host maps on your server (or Fast >>>>>>>> Download server). It may have taken 3 months, but it looks like all >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> bugs have finally been ironed out of it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Even minor things like changing the passtime cvars so that they >>>>>>>> aren't marked as cheats were done for community servers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Does this make up for separating community servers from official >>>>>>>> Valve servers? Probably not. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As for the business model, it's pretty clear why QuickPlay was >>>>>>>> introduced into the game if you look at *when* it was introduced. >>>>>>>> Valve >>>>>>>> servers and Quickplay were introduced in the Uber Update, the same >>>>>>>> update >>>>>>>> that made the game free to play. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In other words, it was introduced as a hook to get people to play >>>>>>>> the game and spend money. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It wasn't really a surprise to anyone who used QuickPlay that Valve >>>>>>>> eventually changed it to default to Valve servers... people already >>>>>>>> explained the reason why further up the thread. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It's also not a surprise that Gun Mettle contracts are restricted >>>>>>>> to official servers. If they weren't, some enterprising person would >>>>>>>> write >>>>>>>> a server script that duplicates the actions needed to award points and >>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>> use it to farm from a ton of accounts, which would in turn drive down >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> value of economy items. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 3:05 PM, ICS Staff <i...@ics-base.net> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2005, community servers were first party servers, there were no >>>>>>>>> Valve servers. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2014, community servers are 3rd party servers, Valve servers give >>>>>>>>> you XP, drops from missions, players get directed only to Valve >>>>>>>>> servers and >>>>>>>>> community servers are in separate pool completely. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What's next, you take away the drops too or are you really going >>>>>>>>> to do something to keep us running servers or not? Too afraid to have >>>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>>> discussion about the matter? Yeah, thought so. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -ics >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>>>>> archives, please visit: >>>>>>>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Ross Bemrose >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>>>> archives, please visit: >>>>>>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>>> archives, please visit: >>>>>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>> archives, please visit: >>>>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>>> please visit: >>>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>> please visit: >>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds > >
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