imhoYou seem to be disagreeing with something he never wrote. Nobody here has argued against heavy use of ISPF panels. Nobody here has claimed that they don't use them heavily. The key word in David's reply, which he emphasized, was "solely".
IMHO a systems programmer should know the tools at his disposal and make an informed decision as to what is most productive in a given context. ________________________________________ From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of Doug <d...@bkassociates.net> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2023 1:03 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment? Sorry, but I agree to disagree. The panels can have the effect of making staff FAR more efficient than learning command line TSO even for RACF. I can use them both, but I started in RACF way before there were any dialogs. Rather than "laziness" think efficiency. I prefer 3.2 to typing "allocate ....." to define a PDS. Especially given today's upcoming new "sysprogs." And I and my staff at one place designed and implemented a dialog to clone the res. Still works today. WAY more efficient. But I can build a res by hand if I have to. Some of the most challenged sysprogs I ever dealt with were ones that thought that the command line was the only thing used by "real" sysprogs. They felt so superior, and made soooo many errors. I like command line in Unix too, but I gotta admit, I love Filezilla for FTP's. Amazing. Never really one answer. Doug Doug Fuerst ------ Original Message ------ From: "David Spiegel" <00000468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu Sent: 21-Feb-23 12:47:32 Subject: Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment? >Hi Doug, >I consider relying on ISPF Panels *solely* negative, especially when SysProgs >should learn the Command Line, in particular for RACF Commands. This is a sign >of laziness. >I've also been in jobs where I maintained/added to ISPF Applications to e.g. >create a z/OS Clone, where the user fills in the "from" and "to" DASD >addresses and the ISPF application does the rest. >BTW, I am referring negatively to people who rely upon ISPF Panels *and* have >never heard of CBT. >There is no need to get offended. > >Regards, >David > >On 2023-02-21 12:13, Doug wrote: >>So David, you consider using ISPF panels a net negative? I used to write >>dialogs for anything repetitive that I or anyone else had to do. >>Never thought it was bad if "people in charge are by-the-book mentality and >>I can imagine them using ISPF Panels for everything from RACF to SMP/e." >>Especially when I was the person in charge. And I knew what the CBT tape was >>and is.... >> >>Doug Fuerst >> >>------ Original Message ------ >>From: "David Spiegel" <00000468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> >>To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu >>Sent: 21-Feb-23 6:09:15 >>Subject: Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a >>new environment? >> >>>Hi Brian, >>>You said: "...so why would they question my use of anything I need in order >>>to perform my job efficiently? ..." >>>My answer is that the people in charge are by-the-book mentality and I can >>>imagine them using ISPF Panels for everything from RACF to SMP/e. >>>(At one of my jobs, the MVS Team Lead said : "CBT??? ... never heard of it" >>>(This guy has been an MVS Systems Programmer for more than 30 years.)) >>>These same people eschew creativity in any form, because, they're scared due >>>to ignorance. >>> >>>Regards, >>>David >>> >>>On 2023-02-21 00:31, Brian Westerman wrote: >>>>I think that's a pretty invalid point. I don't see anyone questioning how >>>>to write an exit or install a new system, or use SMPe, so why would they >>>>question my use of anything I need in order to perform my job efficiently? >>>> >>>>Maybe it's just that they all assume I must know what I'm doing. If they >>>>didn't believe that, I doubt they would have asked me to do the project. >>>> >>>>Brian >>>> >>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>> >>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
