In the last couple of years, I have worked with two IBM z/OS developers to improve their documentation. I am impressed with the level of details still expended on those manuals. It will be a shame if that level of detail is lost in an attempt to "streamline" development processes, or simply save cost. Lennie
-----Original Message----- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Phil Smith III Sent: 20 October 2025 16:23 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Newer SYSPROGs (was Re: Political topics) Yes yes and yes. Also: remember PDOMs? Long gone, but formerly a requirement for any serious program. -----Original Message----- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Schmitt, Michael Sent: Monday, October 20, 2025 11:20 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Newer SYSPROGs (was Re: Political topics) The Descent of Software Documentation ------------------------------------- 1. Full and complete documentation of every detail. Remember the 40 lbs of manuals for the Microsoft C/C++ compiler v7.0, in a two foot long box? 2. Same documentation but only in .PDF format. 3. Documentation only as web pages 4. Documentation only as knowledgebase entries 5. Only documentation is generated from program source header files (cf. Apple developer) 6. No documentation. You're just expected to google and hope someone, somewhere has figured it out. I think there's several drivers of the decline: * Agile programming combined with rapid releases: when the software's features and operation are constantly changing, there's no steady state to document * Feature "rollout": There's no one version of Dropbox's feature set, for example. What they do is progressively rollout changes across the userbase. So if they document that it works a certain way, that's only true for a subset of the users. Microsoft 365 is the same. * If you never document how something works, no one can prove that it is broken. -----Original Message----- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Lennie Bradshaw Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2025 1:06 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Newer SYSPROGs (was Re: Political topics) Sadly, much software on other platforms today has far less documentation. This leads to low expectations that an answer might be found. Instead, answers are found in forums. Perhaps we need to emphasise that IBM mainframe systems manuals are rather more comprehensive and can be used as a first source of information. Lennie -----Original Message----- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <[email protected]> On Behalf Of David Purdy Sent: 15 October 2025 18:25 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Newer SYSPROGs (was Re: Political topics) Our first response to a question is;What did the manual say? Our second response is:Don't use ChatGPT On Wednesday, October 15, 2025 at 12:59:09 PM EDT, Jousma, David <[email protected]> wrote: Changed the subject to keep Darren’s feathers down… As entrenched system programmers most of us are from decades of experience, we really need to take a softer tone that some here have mentioned. First off, let’s not scare away newbies from the platform, but sometimes just a pointer to which manual they can go looking at is all that is needed. My mentor used to ask me what I was looking at that I didn’t understand. And if I replied that I hadn’t looked, well then he pointed me to the manual. For me, I’ve learned more about everything else by searching the manual for what I really wanted. After awhile it all starts to fit together. _______________________________ Dave Jousma Vice President | Director, Technology Engineering Fifth Third Bank | 1830 East Paris Ave, SE | Grand Rapids, MI 49546 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <[email protected]> on behalf of Seymour J Metz <[email protected]> Date: Wednesday, October 15, 2025 at 12:44 PM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Political topics CAUTION EXTERNAL EMAIL This message came from outside your organization. DO NOT open attachments or click on links from unknown senders or unexpected emails. Report Suspicious<https://us-phishalarm-ewt.proofpoint.com/EWT/v1/MwwqYLOC6b6whF7V!odOGFh_lgiBhHko4rfivV4VzOYlSakFScohREKt1lGITdYXTA3WpPdeyc3ve7qYrUUIMoYKt8dq79EP_rOs4II3PnV-64oPJWXSHVJdG0BRgyS3QNjll33pZ7KDU7U5tLInALgIXLoigtw$> I used to phrase it as "Which part of the explanation is unclear"; maybe they legit did RTFM and the information was ambiguous or flat wrong. Yes, that last does happen, and I can't reaonably expect a user to recognize and deal with it. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mason.gmu.edu/*smetz3__;fg!!MwwqYLOC6b6whF7V!nnbo8essFOHBsvihlavRW_OmYqJjnXkV9_AJ2xi6-MtH1HpuaWh1ei55btIwI8zepSAALYak-AHutQ9P$ עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר ________________________________________ From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <[email protected]> on behalf of Jay Maynard <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2025 9:34 AM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Political topics External Message: Use Caution I try hard to always say which FM and where the information is in it when saying RTFM. On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 8:06 AM Seymour J Metz <[email protected]> wrote: > Always verify that the relevant information is in TFM before saying RTFM. > In fact, verify that it is not hidden away. > -- Jay Maynard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN This e-mail transmission contains information that is confidential and may be privileged. It is intended only for the addressee(s) named above. If you receive this e-mail in error, please do not read, copy or disseminate it in any manner. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. 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