On Thursday, 12/16/2010 at 04:32 EST, Dave Jones <d...@vsoft-software.com> wrote:
> So what you are saying is that the only interest folks might have in > using modern compilers on CMS is to write "business" applications and > nothing else? Remember that IBM first sold us on PL/I as an all-purpose > language, one that could be used for systems programming applications as > well as business ones.....so I don't see thjis as an issue of "nobody > writes business applications anymore on CMS, so we don't need to provide > the compilers....". No. What I'm saying that compiler developers are interested in what business application developers want and need. They also take an interest in systems application developers to the extent it is a nit on top of the business apps. (Thinking about the METAL option on z/OS C/C++.) Remember, the *customer* doesn't need the compiler, the developer does. If you have only a handful of developers.... > Yes, we know what's available for development work on CMS, but surely > you're not saying we should not ask for more tools.....or that we should > simply sit down, shut up and be happy with whatever IBM thinks we need? > It is certainly true that there are a relatively few of us interested in > developing such software but I believe that we make the overall z/VM > environment more attractive to potential customers, and thus fill an > important role in the zSeries ecosystem. You should never "sit down and shut up" if your needs aren't being met. Using your knowledge of the systems and business application development situation on CMS, explain to the IBM PL/I compiler owners how many licenses they can expect. Things a product owner has to consider: - It costs money to create a product, even if it's "just a port". Packaging is certainly *NOT* a port! - Do there need to be any changes to deal with CMS vs. original platform? Usually there are considerations for file specification. - After investing in the needed additional skills and in the crank-turning needed to release a product, will they have a good E/R ratio? - It is a growing business? Or am I going to eventually have to get rid of the resources I need to acquire? - How does it compare to other investment opportunities? - Are there any overriding issues? > and it's not a case of "the wishes of the Few or the One are ignored in > favor of the wishes of the many".....it's more of a case of out of, say, > 100 VM advocates, 4 want IBM to port PL/I to CMS and the other 96 simply > don't care, and not that the other 96 are actively against it. This isn't about advocacy. I don't know anyone who thinks you SHOULDN'T have the compiler of your choice. The only question is whether compiler providers can make enough money doing it. If those other 96 aren't going to buy the compiler, they don't have standing in the Court of Economics. > ...but we all know that there is no "one size fits > all" in such software and sites will continue to tweak their > capabilities with site-specific modifications (exits, glue routines, > etc.). All I want is IBM to add one more tool to VM's kit to aid those > sites. I don't see people doing that. They want exits to drive REXX routines or more knobs, not linked-in HLL or assembler modules requiring skills they haven't got. And they don't want to spend money on compilers just for exits. > BTW, all of the talk about not being able to create a "business case" > for the port is a bit ironic (again, imho) given that the most important > advances in VM over the years come from tools developed withOUT having a > hard-nosed $$$-focused business case first: 1) CMs Pipelines, 2) rexx, > 3) RSK, and 4) even the Linux port. The point being that clearly tool > development can happen in the VM environment without always needing a > business case being made first. Ahhh, the Good Ol' Days. Don't get hung up on using IBM's 1970s/1980s-era business decisions as a model for today. Back then, cash oozed from every pore and business cases were a lot weaker. It's a very different environment today. But none of this is news to anyone. It's been this way for 20 years now. I wish things were different in the CMS world, really I do. But I think Rick is right: If you can't find a supplier for the compiler of your choice, look at open source. Of course, even that isn't headache-free. Alan Altmark z/VM and Linux on System z Consultant IBM System Lab Services and Training ibm.com/systems/services/labservices office: 607.429.3323 alan_altm...@us.ibm.com IBM Endicott
