On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 2:34 AM, Ralph Droms <rdroms.i...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Aug 1, 2013, at 11:14 AM 8/1/13, Andy Bierman <a...@yumaworks.com> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Isn't it obvious why humming is flawed and raising hands works? >> (Analog vs. digital). A hand is either raised or it isn't. >> The sum of all hands raised is comparable across tests. > > The repeatable test gives *an* answer, but is not necessarily the answer that > best reflects the sentiment of those answering the question. > > A relatively imprecise thermometer that gives a reading close to the measured > temperature is more useful than a digital thermometer that gives a precise > but highly inaccurate reading. >
I disagree. Whether I raise my hand to ear level, 2 inches above my head, or as high as I can reach, the chair will still count my raised hand as "1". If I hum really load (and if everybody hums at a different volume) the chair cannot possibly know how to quantify that result. Quantifying the number of raised hands is not a judgement call, > - Ralph Andy > >> The sum of the amplitude of all hums is not. >> >> >> Andy >> >> On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 1:50 AM, Ralph Droms <rdroms.i...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> I found the process in the 6tsch BoF (Tue 1520) for asking about taking on >>> the work discussed in the BoF to be thought-provoking. >>> >>> Toward the end of the BoF, the chairs asked the question "1. Is this a >>> topic that the IETF should address?" First, the chairs asked for a hum. >>> From my vantage point (middle of the room), the hum was pretty close to >>> equal, for/against. I reviewed the audio >>> (http://www.ietf.org/audio/ietf87/ietf87-bellevue-20130730-1520-pm2.mp3, >>> starting about 1:22), and heard a slightly louder hum "for". The BoF >>> chairs decided they needed more information than they could extract from >>> the hum, so they asked for a show of hands. From the audio record, there >>> were "a lot" for (which matches my recollection) and "a handful" against >>> (my memory is that no hands showed against). There was a request to ask >>> for a show of hands for "how many don't know". The question was asked, and >>> the record shows "a dozen". >>> >>> So, there was apparently a complete change in the answer to the question >>> based on humming versus voting. There may also have been some effect from >>> asking, after the fact, for a show of hands for "don't know". >>> >>> I'm really curious about the results, which indicate that, at least in this >>> case, the response to the question is heavily dependent on the on the mode >>> used to obtain the answers to the question (which we all know is possible). >>> In particular, the effect of humming versus show of hands was pretty >>> obvious. draft-resnick-on-consensus gives several reasons why humming is >>> preferred over a show of hands. From this example, it seems to me to be >>> worth considering whether a more honest and accurate result is obtained >>> through humming rather than a show of hands. >>> >>> The other question raised in my mind is why the initial result from the >>> hum, which did not have a consensus either way, was not sufficient. >>> "Roughly the same response" for/against the question would seem to me to be >>> as valid a result as explicit consensus one way or the other, and the act >>> of taking a show of hands to survey the appeared to treat the hum as >>> irrelevant, rather than highly significant. >>> >>> - Ralph >>> >
