Ahh...but there are better solutions...in which you do not become a spammer
and jeopardize your ability to relay to other mail servers as a result.

For example, many Declude/Message Sniffer customers are able to filter out
over 99% of incoming spam, and it sounds like others using combinations of
other tools like IMGate, mxGuard, and SpamAssassin are similarly successful.

So, when there's an alternative that doesn't effectively turn you into a
spammer, why choose to do so?

Darin.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bruce Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 3:15 AM
Subject: RE: Re[2]: [IMail Forum] A Quick Note from the Ipswitch Executive
Team


When you are faced with loosing a group of surgery centers that generates
multi-thousands of dollars a year in revenue or finding a solution to the
spam problem, it is no longer a difficult decision.


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Darin Cox
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 22:28
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [IMail Forum] A Quick Note from the Ipswitch
Executive Team


Bruce, please don't take offense...I think everyone is just trying to help,
trying various tactics to get the point across.  Challenge/Response (CR)
results in significant extra email to those that have been joe-jobbed, which
is one of the main reasons others are asking that you not do it.  It's
similar to sending infected virus messages back to someone who was spoofed
by a forging virus and never sent the email to begin with.

If you want to implement something similar to the CR, you could
automatically mark all mail as spam, routing them to individual spam
folders, and then allow your users to whitelist desired senders.

Bottom line, there are much better ways to handle spam filtering that CR,
which also result in a much friendlier environment between mail admins who
are all trying to protect their users as best they can.  We should not
implement systems that make it worse for others, as we're fighting a common
foe.

Darin.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 11:06 PM
Subject: RE: Re[2]: [IMail Forum] A Quick Note from the Ipswitch Executive
Team


then blacklist us, please, because, with the exception of any correspondence
via this list, we've never sent or received a message to or from your domain
in more than 5 years - I just scanned 5 years worth of logs to verify that.
no skin off my back.  my customers want ZERO SPAM and that's one way to
start to give it to them.  they're tired of it and I'm tired of telling them
to "wait, it's (maybe) just around the corner - if all of the interest
groups, the world trade organizations, the government and microsoft can quit
fighting long enough to come up with a solution that works".

Bruce Barnes
ChicagoNetTech Inc

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of William Van
Hefner
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 21:22
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Re[2]: [IMail Forum] A Quick Note from the Ipswitch
Executive Team


Bruce,

Clients may love it, but it is BAD for us admins, BAD for the people who
innocently get this garbage bounced back to them after getting Joe Jobbed,
and BAD for the internet in general. I consider any challenge/response
transmission to my domain SPAM, and it is treated exactly as such. Any admin
short-sighted and inconsiderate enough to install challenge/response on
their server will be permanently blacklisted, at least by me. If spammers
actually used their own addresses, challenge/response would be a valid way
to fight spam. Instead, it punishes ISPs and users whose addresses were
hijacked by these scumbags. It's irresponsible net behavior, IMHO. This does
not help the spam problem at all. It just makes it worse, and punishes the
wrong people. "Out of sight, out of mind" is no way to run a mail server.


William Van Hefner
Network Administrator

Vantek Communications, Inc.
http://www.vantekcommunications.com



-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce Barnes
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 6:30 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Re[2]: [IMail Forum] A Quick Note from the Ipswitch Executive
Team


1.  almost who is using Challenge/Response LOVED the service.  They have the
option, on a user-by-user basis, to turn it off.

IMHO, it is a very GOOD thing and is overwhelmingly liked by the
administrations of the three school systems I talked to.

Addresses can be PRE-LISTED (as many lists are now telling people to do when
they have accessed a web site that will send a message from a machine and
even supplying the e-mail address to do so.

Until all of the in-fighting over SPF, CALLER-ID (microsuck's name for their
re-worked and re-launched version of SPF) is resolved and universally
adopted, the next best thing is CHALLENGE/RESPONSE.


 1.  As far as the pricing goes, that includes all updates, all support and
it can be purchased for a lot less, just like IMail, from 3rd party
resellers.

 2. They support ANY anti-virus that does dos level scanning, including
Norton Corporate edition.

 3.  The new version supports SPF

 4. They support calendaring

 5.  They support LISTS and will allow the direct import of Imail lists.

 6. They support ODBC connectivity.

 7. They support unlimited domains and users

 8.  They support IM from the web based client without an added cost,  IM is
setup by default to be BY INVITATION ONLY.

 9.  They supply a tool to migrate Imail, both users and mail.

10.  They support the ability to archive all incoming and outgoing messages
for anyone who must comply with Sarbaines-Oxley - that's ALL financial
institution, insurance companies, and all publicly held corporations.
Incidently SmarterMail CANNOT do Sarbaines-Oxley archiving - I already
talked to their sales department.

11. The e-mail server can automatically back up all of the e-mail and users
on a regular schedule.

12.  ANY feature can be DISABLED on a USER-BY-USER or DOMAIN-BY-DOMAIN
basis.

I'll gladly pay a little more for a customer service department that
actually answers their phones and responds in less than 10 minutes with a
solution and who will stay on the phone with you, like Dell (and like Compaq
used to before they off-shored everything to India with a bunch of people
who have no technical background and don't know the names or anything about
any of their own certified techs) for several hours at a time until a
problem is resolved.

Yes, gentlemen and women, if we want 1st class tech support that is
maintained in the United States of America then we have to be willing to PAY
for it.  Just like we are available to our customers 24 hours a day, 7 days
a week and are willing to bend over backwards to resolve a problem, so are
these people.  And this is not conjecture, but from the mouths of people who
have actually used the product and had to deal with the support people.

Bruce Barnes
ChicagoNetTech Inc
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of John Tolmachoff
(Lists)
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 18:48
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Re[2]: [IMail Forum] A Quick Note from the Ipswitch Executive
Team


Bruce wrote:
In addition to everything we've looking for, it auto-verifies any incoming
e-mail message the first time a message is received from a new e-mail
address and forces the sender to click on a link in the verification message
to validate they are a person and not a machine.

To see an example, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and the server will
send a verify message back.

Bad server, bad server. Search the archives for Challenge/Response. Bad!

John Tolmachoff
Engineer/Consultant/Owner
eServices For You



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