On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:30:26 -0500, Larry Garfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tuesday 10 July 2007, chris# wrote:
>
>> > Better docs on how to run PHP 4 and PHP 5 at the same time would
> likely
>> > be helpful, and someone is working on that for GoPHP5.org, I think.
>> > However, your claim that "you have millions... of lines of code that
> have
>> > to be nearly
>> > completely rewritten to be usable in PHP 5" is not true. Sure, you
> could
>> > completely rewrite your app, but unless you're doing something very
> very
>> > dependent on objects passing by value porting a PHP 4 app to run
>> > correctly in
>> > PHP 5 is not the herculean task that some make it out to be. You
>> > don't /have/ to rewrite everything to use objects. Even the
> procedural
>> > code
>> > is easier, with the extra array manipulation routines. :-)
>> >
>> > That sounds like more of a marketing issue.
>>
>> Greetings, and thanks for the response.
>> For the sake of clarity; I was /not/ indicating that /I/ had millions of
>> lines of code to /completely/ rewrite. But rather that there /are/
> millions
>> (perhaps billions) of lines of code that need to be rewritten on the
>> Internet in various applications/ libraries/classes, etc...
>
> Yes, I understood that you mean "there exists millions, perhaps billions
> of
> lines". However, I disagree with you on that point. :-) The only way
> that's
> possible, IMO, is if you're counting every installed copy of WordPress or
> Joomla or Drupal or PHPBB or whatever separately. And of course, most of
> the
> widely-installed OSS apps are already quite happy on PHP 5, even if they
> don't leverage its full potential.
Fair enough. I have to admit, I had been up for too many hours when seeing
your response, and jumped on a reply w/o giving the answer adequate thought -
see; reactive. ;)
I'll meet you somewhere in the middle on this one. :)
>
>> And for many, this seems quite - as you put it, the herculean task.
>> Remember, most ppl using PHP on their pages depend on others to write
> their
>> pages/applications/ utilities. They go to
>> sourceforge/freshmeat/phpclasses/hotscripts download something that
> appeals
>> to them and discover that it don't werk on the PHP5 boxen their ISP/
>> hosting provider offers. So they discover they need to fix it to make it
>> work. To most - whom know very little about programming in PHP, this is
>> quite a feat. So as most in the world; they take the
>> least-line-of-resistance and find a PHP4 hosting provider.
>
> Honestly, it's 2007.
Actually half way to '08 ;)
> Any PHP apps that are not yet compatible with PHP 5 at
> all are either (1) internal apps that exist once and never leave the
> server
> they're on or (2) abandoned.
Now, who's overstating?
> Someone could still be writing code for
> them,
> but if the developer hasn't even addressed PHP 5 compatibility yet then
> the
> application is abandoned.
Again, an overstatement. But I'll venture to respond...
You're overall response presupposes that everyone feels the same about PHP5
as you do - embraces it. This however, is naïeve. As PHP4 still has the
largest install base.
NOTE:
Before anyone starts labeling/accusing me as a PHP5 hater. Let me
set the record straight right now:
I love /each/ version for different reasons, and will be forever grateful
to the developers for it's inception/creation and continued development. I
Hope this is now clear.
/NOTE
> Users of the application at this point should
> be
> looking for a replacement app anyway, independent of anything we do.
Assuming that they have any intention of moving to 5. Is it not also
possible that they are hoping for a solution that gives them a bridge
from 4 to 5? Or hoping that 6 will fall somewhere between 4 & 5 - providing
the best of both worlds? Given that they all know that PHP & Co. knows
most of the PHP users aren't flocking to 5. Remember the saying; ppl
will most generally always take the least line of resistance. :)
>
>> Bottom line;
>> there are zillions of PHP thingies out there that were all written for
> PHP4
>> - far more than are available for 5. So until many (most?) of them have
>> been re-written (more accurately; adapted) for PHP5, PHP4 will still be
> a
>> /big/ contender - like it or not.
>
> See above. By this point they've all been adapted or abandoned. Adapting
> may
> be herculean for your average web surfer, but they're not the target
> audience. The target market is PHP developers (for whom it is not
> herculean)
> or server admins (who, from what I've seen, are already moving to PHP 5
> even
> if the stats end up skewed).
Sure. I'll go with you where many developers are concerned. But as Admins
go; I'm not convinced that they possess the same savvy that PHP developers
do. Their skills are more centered around scripting, and proc management.
Which is far more perl oriented that PHP - if either. It's usually bash/sh
or rc (again bash/sh). Indeed. They have knowledge of PHP. But more in a
general sense, than profound.
>
>> OH, before I forget to respond; PHP5 is a
>> completely different animal than PHP4 for the average user. Sure. If you
>> were familiar with Java/Script it all looks quite familiar - technically
>> any OO language for that matter. Hell, I've been with PHP since it's
>> creation, coming from years with perl and converting most of my trusty
>> scripts to PHP. I also discovered many ways to write PHP4 as pseudo OO.
>> Like many I suppose. Anyway, speaking of the past; I remember there
> being
>> quite bit of resistance to the OO flavor that PHP5 offered. Perhaps it
>> lingers still. Well, here's looking forward to feasible solutions to
>> offering multiversions on most PHP hosters. ;)
>
> There's still a lot of resistance to OO. There probably always will be,
> regardless of language. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just one
> tool
> and style among many. (Now, if we can get true functional programming
> ability in PHP as well, then watch the fur fly! <g>) And that's why it's
> also a red-herring. One can write perfectly capable, perfectly good PHP 5
> without ever using the "class" keyword. The claim that is still repeated
> that one "has to" rewrite everything to be OO in order to port to PHP 5
> is,
> quite simply, FUD.
True. But then again, what's the point of using 5 if you're not inclined, or
have the need to write OO apps? It is simply alot of wasted language/ space
and resources, as a whole. Hey! I don't need OO and I've already got PHP4
installed. Why bother with 5 at all? [just a scenario, not my overall feeling/
point of view - I'm being a (devils)advocate here. :)]
>
> Oh yes, and there is no such thing as Java/Script. Java is a pure-OO
> language. Javascript is a semi-functional prototype language. The only
> things they have in common are their first four letters. :-)
Yes. You got me. Quite right. Just axe the Script part, and read it again. :)
>
>> Thanks again for the response.
>
> Cheers.
Best wishes, and thanks for taking the time to respond.
>
> --
> Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 6817012
>
> "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of
> exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea,
> which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to
> himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the
> possession
> of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." --
> Thomas
> Jefferson
>
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