2013/9/11 Johannes Schlüter <johan...@schlueters.de> > On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 13:59 +0300, Arvids Godjuks wrote: > > It is based on the fact that there are too many people writing to > internals > > and mailing lists are not actually manageable at this level. I stopped > > following all the stuff around a year ago, when I started to get like 15 > to > > 30 maillist threads in my inbox daily (hundreds of mails) and too much > > noise. > > Get a better mail client and better mail filters. >
Gmail, the best there is on the WEB. I have a lots of filters and labels setup. Even in this case following the internals is possible if you do it like full time. Sure, there are quite days, but seriously - when it hits the fan - it's a mess. > > > So, I think, it's time to move to a forum. > > I hope this is a joke. > Why? At least you can just delete (or mark deleted with the ability to view if needed) the off topic stuff, move relevant discussions to other threads. Mailing list will stay in place, it will just get cleaner and be used for, as it states in the name, for internal stuff. Not discussing stuff that does not belong in here. > > > Actual forum, that can be > > managed, can have sections dedicated to certain stuff and has user > > We have multiple lists for different things. > I know, been here for a long time. See above. > > > management that allows to mute or actually ban people who are not able to > > behave, troll and do other kind's of stupid stuff that disrupts the work. > > We can ban people and have done that twice or so. PHP is open. If people > annoy you, you can filter them out. > If I would do that, I'll probably filter out like 70% to 90% of the mails coming from this list: in the long history of this mailing list I think it's hard to find someone, who has not gone off topic or posted an occasional annoying e-mail. Even me - that time I was ashamed and if that was a forum - I'd just delete (or ask to delete) that senseless stupid message. > > > Many devs are already just ignoring this mailing list, so what is the > point > > of having it if relevant people just don't read it? > > People read what they consider interesting and ignore other threads, and > I assume this here will end in many ignores. > I care for named params, type hinting and some other stuff. I just dropped following it when there were like 3 threads going on at the same time, messages were pouring like crazy and the amount of text just got so ridiculously big, that I just didn't had the time, ability and will to read it all. I'd say that that threadnaught, if made on a forum, could be edited and shrinked like 7 or 8 times for people actually to read something constructive instead of that monster. > > > The list should remain of course, just to be used as a notification tool > > for new important forum threads, RFC's, daily/weekly digest so that those > > who have less time can still follow all the stuff in a compact manner. > > While loosing the structuring proper mail programs offer and having > media breaks - switching between forums and mail. > > Just a simple examples what mail can do: I can write a mail to the list > an CC the relevant maintainer to draw his attention and he can directly > answer from there. Or I can xpost to bring a discussion from the "CVS" > list, about some "bad" commit to internals. Mail is open, forums are > locking in. > > I haven't seen any useful forum. If Google/Bing/duckduck send me to a > forum it's always a pain to follow those completely unstructured > discussions (mail has In-Reply-to headers allowing a proper client to > sort/nest accordingly etc.) > > Again, replacing the mailing list is not an option - it definitely has it's uses. Also, it's a matter of integrating things and what people with different rights are able to do. What I'm saying here is that forum can, and if rules are enforced, will decrease the mailing list noise a lot and push those senseless holy wars of the mailing list. All the important stuff will still be here. Don't want to read the forum - be my guest. Anything significant will be pushed into internals anyway. All the raging and off topic will be left out on the forum without disturbing your peace. Forum also has the functionality to follow certain posts - meaning you will get notifications, if you want to, about the stuff you want to follow. I know, these are some big changes, need to get used to. But seriously, do you really believe that going through hundreds of mails just to see what points have been brought up is easy? People are loosing the context after 10-15 lengthy e-mails, just jump in without reading all the stuff (because it's just back and forth most of the time with minor, sometimes important, changes). P.S. While I was writing this, 4 people posted. Only Patrick Schaaf posted usefull information. If this would be a forum - those 3 posts should be marked as off topic and hidden by default.