Rochester Electronics offers obsolete parts, however TCM3105 has an exorbitant price...:) If you sell your puppets, it might still be ok...an MP3 player with card is still less expensive. Best wishes,
On Thu 17 Mar 2022, 8:13 AM hans <hansvanveldhuize...@gmail.com wrote: > Hi all, > > I tried the MT8870 a few years ago. I need to send data packets of 4 > bytes, a start byte, a device byte and a high and low nibble. I used tone > 15 as start byte, the second tone as device byte (0-15) 15 then two tones > for the nibbles. That worked well but a DTMF tone should be 40 ms with a 20 > ms delay.!!!!! > > If I compare that with the baud rate of MIDI (31250) which I use so far, > then DTMF is much too slow. > > I then tried the TCM3105. Worked well but they are no longer made. A > handful I've had from China were all broken. > > So… I'll keep controlling my puppets on MIDI for the time being and if > spoken text is needed I'll control the MP3 player > > . I still hope one of you comes up with something different. > > Rregards > > Hans > > Op woensdag 16 maart 2022 om 19:09:43 UTC+1 schreef rob...@hotmail.com: > >> Hi Hans, >> >> Did I understand it right that it did work with DTMF tones and that you >> used a DTMF decoder? >> >> You can still purchase those, see: >> https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/1005002899831939.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.64e440d3mgmq2f&algo_pvid=43e4a7ca-2bbd-43fb-b583-4d047ab197df&aem_p4p_detail=202203161104012985161769842740023335628&algo_exp_id=43e4a7ca-2bbd-43fb-b583-4d047ab197df-1&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000022694629982%22%7D&pdp_pi=-1%3B0.97%3B-1%3B-1%40salePrice%3BEUR%3Bsearch-mainSearch >> >> <https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/1005002899831939.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.64e440d3mgmq2f&algo_pvid=43e4a7ca-2bbd-43fb-b583-4d047ab197df&aem_p4p_detail=202203161104012985161769842740023335628&algo_exp_id=43e4a7ca-2bbd-43fb-b583-4d047ab197df-1&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000022694629982%22%7D&pdp_pi=-1%3B0.97%3B-1%3B-1%40salePrice%3BEUR%3Bsearch-mainSearch> >> 0.85US $ |DTMF MT8870 Voice decoding module phone module|Integrated >> Circuits| - AliExpress >> <https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/1005002899831939.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.64e440d3mgmq2f&algo_pvid=43e4a7ca-2bbd-43fb-b583-4d047ab197df&aem_p4p_detail=202203161104012985161769842740023335628&algo_exp_id=43e4a7ca-2bbd-43fb-b583-4d047ab197df-1&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000022694629982%22%7D&pdp_pi=-1%3B0.97%3B-1%3B-1%40salePrice%3BEUR%3Bsearch-mainSearch> >> Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com >> nl.aliexpress.com >> >> I still have a fixed telephone line next to my mobile number and I was >> thinking of using such a device to get rid of these fake call centers that >> call 'from Windows' to tell me that I have problems with my computer. I >> thought that if I receive a number from abroad I could detect that with >> DTMF and pick up the phone and keep the line busy (or hang up). But I never >> started working on such a project but I did look for DTMF decoders. >> >> And if I would have purchased it, I could have made a JAL library out of >> it .... but no plans for now. So as we say in Dutch "I am making you happy >> with a dead sparrow" >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Rob >> >> ------------------------------ >> *Van:* jal...@googlegroups.com <jal...@googlegroups.com> namens hans < >> hansvanve...@gmail.com> >> *Verzonden:* woensdag 16 maart 2022 09:33 >> >> *Aan:* jallib <jal...@googlegroups.com> >> *Onderwerp:* Re: [jallib] PWM serial audio transmission >> Hi Rob, Kiste >> For now I'll stick with the old MIDI approach. I really hope there will >> be another audio option because with midi I can combine all kinds of music >> with actions but no speech. >> regards >> Hans >> >> Op zondag 27 februari 2022 om 13:22:35 UTC+1 schreef rob...@hotmail.com: >> >> Hi Hans, Kiste, >> >> The POC (proof of concept) was just to create a trigger signal based on >> an audio tone. It was not meant as a way to store data with a certain >> bitrate. >> >> As I mentioned earlier, it measures the tone for 100 ms to determine if >> the tone is there (in my example I detect two different tones but that was >> just to see if that worked too) so the delay between the recording and the >> actual trigger (the detection of the tone) is at least (and more or less at >> most) 100 ms. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Rob >> >> ------------------------------ >> *Van:* 'Oliver Seitz' via jallib <jal...@googlegroups.com> >> *Verzonden:* zondag 27 februari 2022 11:16 >> >> *Aan:* jal...@googlegroups.com <jal...@googlegroups.com> >> *Onderwerp:* Re: [jallib] PWM serial audio transmission >> Sure, it is a proof-of-concept, not a product. I'm quite sure that 100, >> maybe 500 bytes per second are possible, but the firmware needs to use a >> diferent approach. >> >> This list is about libraries, and what you need is not easily or >> efficiently realised as a library, it's a project. I have some ideas how >> the coding and decoding could be done efficiently, but I presume I wouldn't >> use any library for that at all. So it wouldn't even make a good example >> for jallib ;-) >> >> Let me think a bit about designing the 8 pin encoder and decoder... >> >> Greets, >> Kiste >> >> Am Sonntag, 27. Februar 2022, 10:43:06 MEZ hat hans < >> hansvanve...@gmail.com> Folgendes geschrieben: >> >> >> HI Kiste >> Unfortunately that is way too slow. I need to send and read a set of at >> least 9 bytes with an interval of no more than 3 seconds. >> >> regards >> Hans >> >> Op zondag 27 februari 2022 om 08:45:40 UTC+1 schreef Kiste: >> >> Hi Hans, >> >> sorry for chiming in again with another warning: Rob called the set of >> programs a "proof of concept", that is, it is not fit yet for your original >> idea. The design of the receiving program is *guaranteed*not*to*work* at a >> speed faster than 5 baud. I'd estimate, you could have serial data at 1 or >> 2 baud. That is five to ten seconds for one byte. >> >> Good thing is: You don't have to worry about mp3 at such a speed. The >> compression will not interfere with data sent that slow. >> >> Greets, >> Kiste >> >> Am Samstag, 26. Februar 2022, 19:32:09 MEZ hat hans < >> hansvanve...@gmail.com> Folgendes geschrieben: >> >> >> Hi Kiste, Rob, >> I did en compiled the programs. Now`the next days ( inspite of carnaval) >> at work hans. Great >> >> Op zaterdag 26 februari 2022 om 17:22:57 UTC+1 schreef Kiste: >> >> Hi Hans, >> >> of course you can try, and it will work up to a certain speed. >> >> The 12F683 should work quite the same, but the oscillator speed setting >> is different. So you would have to... >> >> - include the correct device file. >> - comment out the line "pragma target IOSCFS F8MHZ ..." >> - add a line "OSCCON_IRCF=0b111" >> >> Then, the input of Timer1 needs a voltage that goes higher than 2/3 of >> the supply voltage. With audio equipment, you'll need a speaker output to >> reach such levels. Use a resistor (about 1k to 10k) between (+) of the >> speaker output and the chip's input pin. (-) of the speaker output must be >> connected to GND of the PIC. Be careful *NOT* to power the amplifier and >> the PIC from the same power supply device! The amplifier must be linear, a >> class-D amp will not work. >> >> Greets, >> Kiste >> >> >> Am Samstag, 26. Februar 2022, 16:39:20 MEZ hat hans < >> hansvanve...@gmail.com> Folgendes geschrieben: >> >> >> Hi, >> I can try it right? Otherwise I can also take another player that can >> handle WAV. >> Unfortunately I only have some 12F683 lying around, the 12f615 which Rob >> used I do not know.. >> regards >> hans >> >> Op zaterdag 26 februari 2022 om 15:43:26 UTC+1 schreef Kiste: >> >> Oh... MP3 is terrible for digital data. If you can't use wav or another >> lossless format, make sure to use the highest possible bitrate. Also, >> that's another point not to record square waves, sine waves go through mp3 >> far better. >> >> However, crosstalk is less of a problem then :-) >> >> Greets, >> Kiste >> >> Am Samstag, 26. Februar 2022, 15:30:03 MEZ hat hans < >> hansvanve...@gmail.com> Folgendes geschrieben: >> >> >> Here I am again. I don't use a cassette deck. After I have finished the >> audio/command files I just put them in MP3 on the well-known player. >> Wow, now trying Rob's test, but it will take me some time. Anyway >> fantastic again!! >> regards >> Hans >> >> Op zaterdag 26 februari 2022 om 12:02:49 UTC+1 schreef rob...@hotmail.com >> : >> >> Hi Hans, >> >> I tested my proof of concept. I also attached the programs I used. In the >> given video you see the results. >> >> This is how it works and what the video shows: >> >> - The PIC on the left is the transmitter. It uses two inputs (via the >> wires that I connect to VCC or GND). One input enables the transmitter >> (orange wire), that is it starts sending a tone. With the second input >> (green wire) I can switch between a low tone and a high tone. >> - The PWM output of the transmitter (PIC on the left) is connected to >> the timer/counter input of timer 1 of the receiver PIC (PIC on the right). >> - The PIC on the right resets timer 1 then it starts a measurement >> for 100 ms after which it stops the measurement. Then it checks the value >> of timer 1 (which in fact counts the number of 'ticks' generated by the >> PWM >> frequency on its input) within a certain range. If this range is within >> the >> range of the low frequency, it will light up the yellow LED. If this range >> is within the range of the high frequence it will light up the green LED. >> If the counter value is outside these ranges (e.g. when there is no >> signal) >> both LEDs will be off. >> >> I am not sure if this is what you are looking for. I do not know if it >> also works if you would record the transmitted signal to a casette tape. >> >> Link to video: https://youtu.be/49DAT0BQuAc >> <https://youtu.be/49DAT0BQuAc> >> Data via Tone <https://youtu.be/49DAT0BQuAc> >> For more information on JAL, visit: http://justanotherlanguage.org/ >> youtu.be >> >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Rob >> ------------------------------ >> *Van:* jal...@googlegroups.com <jal...@googlegroups.com> namens hans < >> hansvanve...@gmail.com> >> *Verzonden:* zaterdag 26 februari 2022 11:37 >> >> *Aan:* jallib <jal...@googlegroups.com> >> *Onderwerp:* Re: [jallib] PWM serial audio transmission >> Hi, I'm using a 16f1827 with 8 ADC inputs that transmits the position of >> the elements with the help of a potentiometer via the uart and performs the >> movements. The audio track is recorded first and plays normally. At the >> same time, the control signals on the other track are sent via the >> ???????????? included. Afterwards I combine both tracks into a stereo >> signal, moving the playback position of the signals forward a bit to >> compensate for my reaction slowness. When played afterwards, the normal >> audio track goes to the amplifier and the other track to the ??????????? >> which then performs the movements. >> >> Op zaterdag 26 februari 2022 om 09:34:33 UTC+1 schreef Kiste: >> >> Hi Hans, >> >> that's about what I thought. I'm quite sure it can be done with a pic, >> one or two capacitors and three to five resistors (or two resistors and >> potentiometers). I'm just not sure yet what the best way would be. >> >> To keep things simple, you would probably want to build a transmitter >> with manual controls, and a receiver which controls the actual "show". That >> way, you can connect both modules to the tape recorder, and really see what >> the output does from tape, while recording the show. >> >> Greets, >> Kiste >> >> Am Samstag, 26. Februar 2022, 09:04:29 MEZ hat hans < >> hansvanve...@gmail.com> Folgendes geschrieben: >> >> >> Hey, >> I get the impression that my question has not come across properly. I >> will use a regular stereo audio signal. One track contains music, speech >> and other normal sounds. The other track I want to use to record commands >> with which I can move servos, lights, etc. At first I thought to do this >> with DTMF but the MT8880 has died. Then I fiddled with the TCM3105, an >> old-fashioned modem chip, but that didn't work either. I then read >> something about PW application and hence my question. >> I've been messing around with PICs for a long time, but because I'm >> purely mechanical by nature, I have to limit myself to what I called LEGO >> work. You make the stones and I make grateful use of them. >> regards >> Hans >> >> Op zaterdag 26 februari 2022 om 07:41:46 UTC+1 schreef vasile: >> >> Rob, obviously will work. :) But it would be weird to use a bunch of >> external analog electronics. >> BTW, with a PIC you can do a class D amplifier... what perhaps Hans >> wanted is not far away: sampling and then digitizing via PWM. >> Other choices are possible as well. Success on any variant you'll choose! >> >> On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 7:58 PM Rob CJ <rob...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >> Hi Kiste, >> >> The reason that I think it still might work is because - what I mentioned >> previously - is that my Apple II I had built in the past also just worked >> with tones to store data (at that time only games 🙂). >> >> I copied a pice of the casette interface of the Apple II schematic >> diagram I found on the internet. What you see is that with an opamp the >> audio is input signal is converted to a digital signal and the rest of the >> processing is done in software. There is no special chip on the board to >> process this data stream. >> >> Also the data out is just a direct output of a flip-flop with some >> resistors to reduce the signal outpt but not even a low pass filter. >> >> The variations in cassette speed will result in a variation of the tone >> so if I use a tone range to detect the right tone it might work. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Rob >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *Van:* jal...@googlegroups.com <jal...@googlegroups.com> namens hans < >> hansvanve...@gmail.com> >> *Verzonden:* vrijdag 25 februari 2022 16:20 >> *Aan:* jallib <jal...@googlegroups.com> >> *Onderwerp:* Re: [jallib] PWM serial audio transmission >> >> >> Hi Vasile, >> >> In my time a birth was still followed by a placenta, nowadays an iphone >> comes after. >> >> A long time ago I was infected by Wouter, Jal is even more persistent >> than corona, see http://www.voti.nl/setalk/n_index.html >> >> >> >> regards Hans >> >> Op vrijdag 25 februari 2022 om 13:34:14 UTC+1 schreef vasile: >> >> Hi Hans. Congratulations for your young mind! There aren't many people >> programming at your age. >> You are a great example! >> >> On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 10:16 AM hans <hansvanve...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Hi Vasiele and others. >> I was born before the last world war and I suspect most of you after it. >> I hope it stays that way!! >> Great, I can study today again. Thank you. >> >> Op vrijdag 25 februari 2022 om 06:58:52 UTC+1 schreef vasile: >> >> Kiste, not only the ZX81 but Sinclair Spectrum and most of it's clones >> did the same. >> The biggest problem was the tape speed variation (among the volume >> variation which was corrected in romanian clones -and we had more than any, >> I recall 5 different types). >> >> Hans, on the actual PIC18 series on which JAL works ( presuming you will >> do with JAL) you might have some sampling speed issues. You need at least >> 7.5us for an ADC sample and according to Nyquist theorem you need not 2x ( >> which is pure theoretical) but at least 4x faster sampling than maximum >> frequency you are recording. >> After your AD is sampled, the PWM is not an issue, but you might >> experience a small delay between real recorded speech and the PWM filtered >> one. >> If you plan to add voice for your puppet, then limiting to 4KHz may be a >> good choice. >> >> best wishes, >> hopefully not WW III, but in pace for playing nice... >> >> On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 10:38 PM 'Oliver Seitz' via jallib < >> jal...@googlegroups.com> wrote: >> >> Hi Rob, >> >> connecting two PICs is not like an audio recording. Better connect the >> pic to your soundcard to record and then playback, that way you'll get >> something similar to a tape recorder. >> >> The difficulties when using audio equipment are (at least): >> >> - only alternating current is transmitted >> - the volume is never exactly the same >> - the frequency range is limited to like 100Hz-10kHz >> - the line level voltage is less than 1V >> >> Reading should be possible by most PICs which have comparators. Only a >> resistor is needed, then you can detect zero crossings. >> >> The Sinclair ZX81 used audio equipment as storage. A burst of three >> oscillations coded a zero, five coded a one. The output was low-pass >> filtered. You usually had to try loading a program several times, slightly >> adjusting the volume, until you got lucky. >> >> Greets, >> Kiste >> >> Am Donnerstag, 24. Februar 2022, 19:56:01 MEZ hat Rob CJ < >> rob...@hotmail.com> Folgendes geschrieben: >> >> >> Hi Hans, >> >> If I understand you right the only thing you want to do is to record a >> signal or a sequence of signals on a casette player that can be used to >> trigger something when the recording is played back right? >> >> If my initial suggestion would work - which may work since I have the >> idea that my Apple II did more ore less the same thing - I could give it a >> try to do a proof of concept. >> >> I may have a the problem that I do not have a casette recorder but I >> could fake it by just connecting two PICs to see if that works. The final >> test could then be done by you. >> >> Which PIC type are you using? >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Rob >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *Van:* jal...@googlegroups.com <jal...@googlegroups.com> namens hans < >> hansvanve...@gmail.com> >> *Verzonden:* donderdag 24 februari 2022 17:07 >> *Aan:* jallib <jal...@googlegroups.com> >> *Onderwerp:* Re: [jallib] PWM serial audio transmission >> >> Another piece of text: >> So far I've done everything with MIDI. I used one midi channel for the >> actions with a general command type. Then 2 data, one for the device nr >> (16) and one for the command. (0-128) >> This has worked well for years, but it does require a complete MIDI sound >> package. >> >> Op donderdag 24 februari 2022 om 16:55:46 UTC+1 schreef hans: >> >> Hey , >> I have tried a circuit with an MT8880 but the ICI has failed. I did hear >> the 16 tones, but when I wanted to receive them, the chip gave up the ghost. >> In theory I understand your suggestions well, but developing something >> like this is not easy for me. I'm just a LEGO builder. >> regards >> Hans >> >> Op woensdag 23 februari 2022 om 19:30:37 UTC+1 schreef rob...@hotmail.com >> : >> >> Hi Hans, Kiste, >> >> You can still by DTMF decoders and I assume also DTMF encoders. Just look >> at for example Aliexpress and type DTMF. >> >> But another suggestion. Many, many years ago I had built an Apple II and >> I used cassette tapes to store and load games which was using tones >> generated by the Apple II itself using two tones, one for high, one for low >> and one as a lead-in tone (not sure in the lead-in tone was another tone) >> to synchronze the start of the recorded program. You would not need this >> lead-in tone in your case >> >> So I think it may not be that complex: >> -) For recording on casette, generate this dual tone by the PIC via PWM >> or maybe it is also sufficient to generate one tone in case of a 1 and no >> tone in case of a 0 but I think this will be less reliable. >> -) For playback, measure the length of the recorded PWM tone. If is is >> within a certain range you accept it as a one and in case of two tones the >> lower tone could be zero and the higher tone is one. >> >> As long as the tone frequency is not too high, I think this could work. >> >> A more advanced solution would be to use a phase locked loop (PLL) but I >> am not sure if it will work. The PLL locks to the input signal so the >> voltage that controls the oscillator goes up and down to follow (lock on >> to) the input signal and this oscillator voltage signal could then be used >> by a comparator of the PIC to detect a high or low tone. You can also use >> the oscillator of the IC to generate the two tones by controlling the >> oscillator voltage by the PIC. A typical IC for that is the HEF4046. I have >> used this IC many many years ago too. This solution may be bit over the top >> since you only want a kind of trigger signal >> >> But maybe the first solution is more doable. Just give it a try. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Rob >> >> ------------------------------ >> *Van:* 'Oliver Seitz' via jallib <jal...@googlegroups.com> >> *Verzonden:* woensdag 23 februari 2022 09:58 >> *Aan:* jal...@googlegroups.com <jal...@googlegroups.com> >> *Onderwerp:* Re: [jallib] PWM serial audio transmission >> >> Hi Hans, >> >> 20 years ago I would have suggested using DTMF, but the decoder chips are >> rare these days... >> >> PIC controllers include various peripherals which can be used to encode >> and decode DC-free signals (which, apart from the frequency below, say, >> 10kHz, is the requirement to be recorded as audio). On/off keying or >> frequency shift keying are the easiest, I think. Which chips are you going >> to use? >> >> Greets, >> Kiste >> >> Am Mittwoch, 23. Februar 2022, 09:15:43 MEZ hat hans < >> hansvanve...@gmail.com> Folgendes geschrieben: >> >> >> Hello everyone, >> I have been trying for a long time to place a serial signal on one track >> of an audio recording which I can read afterwards. To make all kinds of >> things happen at the same time as the audio is played. I have now tried to >> do this with the old modem system ( TCM3105) but it failed hopelessly. I >> read that there are also systems to do this using PWM. Does anyone have an >> idea? >> regards >> Hans >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "jallib" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to jallib+un...@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jallib/773ca37b-9bed-4349-a8eb-32a5d8973df6n%40googlegroups.com >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jallib/773ca37b-9bed-4349-a8eb-32a5d8973df6n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "jallib" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to jallib+un...@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jallib/201142693.752814.1645606718467%40mail.yahoo.com >> 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