Congrats Rob, it looks good. :) Perhaps you need a positive feedback to the comparator ( resistor between comp output to + input) to kill the oscilations during falling edge? I assumed the yelow trace is the comparator output...
On Sat 19 Mar 2022, 6:38 PM Rob CJ <rob...@hotmail.com wrote: > Hi Hans, > > I did a short test. Luckily I had one CD4046 laying around. I did not have > the right capacitors but I managed to build something. > > This is what I did (not all the details): > -) Connect the PIC that generates the frequency to the input of the CD4046 > -) Connect the VCO voltage of the CD4046 to an LM358. I use the LM358 as a > comparator. On the other pin of the LM358 I connected a potentiometer so > that I could set it just to the value that it does not go on when the low > frequency from the PIC is received. > -) I changed the PIC software slightly so that the frequencies are closer > to each other. The frequencies where just a lucky shot. > > I attached 4 screenshots: > -) Switching the PIC to the high frequency (blue line going low). You see > that the response (output of the LM358, the yellow line) is within 100 us > which is quite fast > -) Switching the PIC to the low frequency. Here you see that first some > pulses are generated before the output of the comparator is low and it > takes some time. This can be handeld in software if you would use a PIC > with a comparator for the reception. I had a capacitor connected to the > input pin of the transmitting PIC. That did not help either but that can be > fixed in the transmitting PIC too. > -) The low frequency of 7.27 kHz > -) The high frequency of 8.45 kHz > > I did not do much calculation, only used components that I had. What I > could see is that the CD4046 nicely locked to the incoming signal. > > So it seems that this might work but no guarantee 🙂. > > Kind regards, > > Rob > > ------------------------------ > *Van:* jallib@googlegroups.com <jallib@googlegroups.com> namens vsurducan > <vsurdu...@gmail.com> > *Verzonden:* vrijdag 18 maart 2022 09:09 > *Aan:* jallib@googlegroups.com <jallib@googlegroups.com> > *Onderwerp:* Re: [jallib] PWM serial audio transmission > > PLL section of 4046 is not easily configurable. These two might help: > https://www.ti.com/lit/an/slaa618/slaa618.pdf > https://www.ti.com/lit/an/scha002a/scha002a.pdf > > On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 9:29 AM hans <hansvanveldhuize...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > Hi Rob, > I have some HEF4046's .( remaining stock from a friend who died too > early) So i have to start study our advice. The more advices the better !! > Thanks, Hans > > Op donderdag 17 maart 2022 om 19:23:05 UTC+1 schreef rob...@hotmail.com: > > Hi Hans, > > Maybe you should give my first suggestion a try. What you have been using > with the modem IC was frequency shift keying (FSK), which was the same that > I did with the PIC by generating a different frequency when a 0 or 1 is > transmitted. > > So for decoding you can use the very inexpensive HEF4046 or 74HC4046 > (costs less than 1 Euro). I found an application note where they use this > for FSK Demodulation and Modulation. I do not know how fast it will respond > to in frequency changes but my assumption is that it may be fast enough for > your application. The IC does not need many external components. > > As I mentiond earlier, you can use the input voltage of the VCO of this IC > on a comparator of the PIC to determine if a 0 or 1 is received. > > What this Phase Locked Loop IC does is that tries to lock onto the input > signal by in increasing or decreasing its osciliator frequency. This > increase or decrease is done by raising or lowering the VCO input signal > (VCO stands for Voltage Controlled Oscillator). So by looking at the level > of this VCO input signal you can determine if a 0 or 1 is received. > > In the attached application note you also see that when the input signal > raises in frequency that the VCO input voltage goes up to follow that > higher input frequency. > > You could still use the PIC for generating the FSK signal and use this IC > for the demodulation of that signal. > > The frequency used in this application note it quite high but you can > change that by using other values for the VCO by using a different > capacitor. I also attached the datasheet of a HEF4046 so that you can see > for which values which frequency is generated also known as center > frequency. > > Kind regards, > > Rob > > > > ------------------------------ > *Van:* jal...@googlegroups.com <jal...@googlegroups.com> namens vsurducan > <vsur...@gmail.com> > *Verzonden:* donderdag 17 maart 2022 14:07 > > *Aan:* jal...@googlegroups.com <jal...@googlegroups.com> > *Onderwerp:* Re: [jallib] PWM serial audio transmission > Rochester Electronics offers obsolete parts, however TCM3105 has an > exorbitant price...:) If you sell your puppets, it might still be ok...an > MP3 player with card is still less expensive. > Best wishes, > > On Thu 17 Mar 2022, 8:13 AM hans <hansvanve...@gmail.com wrote: > > Hi all, > > I tried the MT8870 a few years ago. I need to send data packets of 4 > bytes, a start byte, a device byte and a high and low nibble. I used tone > 15 as start byte, the second tone as device byte (0-15) 15 then two tones > for the nibbles. That worked well but a DTMF tone should be 40 ms with a 20 > ms delay.!!!!! > > If I compare that with the baud rate of MIDI (31250) which I use so far, > then DTMF is much too slow. > > I then tried the TCM3105. Worked well but they are no longer made. A > handful I've had from China were all broken. > > So… I'll keep controlling my puppets on MIDI for the time being and if > spoken text is needed I'll control the MP3 player > > . I still hope one of you comes up with something different. > > Rregards > > Hans > > Op woensdag 16 maart 2022 om 19:09:43 UTC+1 schreef rob...@hotmail.com: > > Hi Hans, > > Did I understand it right that it did work with DTMF tones and that you > used a DTMF decoder? > > You can still purchase those, see: > https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/1005002899831939.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.64e440d3mgmq2f&algo_pvid=43e4a7ca-2bbd-43fb-b583-4d047ab197df&aem_p4p_detail=202203161104012985161769842740023335628&algo_exp_id=43e4a7ca-2bbd-43fb-b583-4d047ab197df-1&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000022694629982%22%7D&pdp_pi=-1%3B0.97%3B-1%3B-1%40salePrice%3BEUR%3Bsearch-mainSearch > > <https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/1005002899831939.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.64e440d3mgmq2f&algo_pvid=43e4a7ca-2bbd-43fb-b583-4d047ab197df&aem_p4p_detail=202203161104012985161769842740023335628&algo_exp_id=43e4a7ca-2bbd-43fb-b583-4d047ab197df-1&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000022694629982%22%7D&pdp_pi=-1%3B0.97%3B-1%3B-1%40salePrice%3BEUR%3Bsearch-mainSearch> > 0.85US $ |DTMF MT8870 Voice decoding module phone module|Integrated > Circuits| - AliExpress > <https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/1005002899831939.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.64e440d3mgmq2f&algo_pvid=43e4a7ca-2bbd-43fb-b583-4d047ab197df&aem_p4p_detail=202203161104012985161769842740023335628&algo_exp_id=43e4a7ca-2bbd-43fb-b583-4d047ab197df-1&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000022694629982%22%7D&pdp_pi=-1%3B0.97%3B-1%3B-1%40salePrice%3BEUR%3Bsearch-mainSearch> > Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com > nl.aliexpress.com > > I still have a fixed telephone line next to my mobile number and I was > thinking of using such a device to get rid of these fake call centers that > call 'from Windows' to tell me that I have problems with my computer. I > thought that if I receive a number from abroad I could detect that with > DTMF and pick up the phone and keep the line busy (or hang up). But I never > started working on such a project but I did look for DTMF decoders. > > And if I would have purchased it, I could have made a JAL library out of > it .... but no plans for now. So as we say in Dutch "I am making you happy > with a dead sparrow" > > Kind regards, > > Rob > > ------------------------------ > *Van:* jal...@googlegroups.com <jal...@googlegroups.com> namens hans < > hansvanve...@gmail.com> > *Verzonden:* woensdag 16 maart 2022 09:33 > > *Aan:* jallib <jal...@googlegroups.com> > *Onderwerp:* Re: [jallib] PWM serial audio transmission > Hi Rob, Kiste > For now I'll stick with the old MIDI approach. I really hope there will be > another audio option because with midi I can combine all kinds of music > with actions but no speech. > regards > Hans > > Op zondag 27 februari 2022 om 13:22:35 UTC+1 schreef rob...@hotmail.com: > > Hi Hans, Kiste, > > The POC (proof of concept) was just to create a trigger signal based on an > audio tone. It was not meant as a way to store data with a certain bitrate. > > As I mentioned earlier, it measures the tone for 100 ms to determine if > the tone is there (in my example I detect two different tones but that was > just to see if that worked too) so the delay between the recording and the > actual trigger (the detection of the tone) is at least (and more or less at > most) 100 ms. > > Kind regards, > > Rob > > ------------------------------ > *Van:* 'Oliver Seitz' via jallib <jal...@googlegroups.com> > *Verzonden:* zondag 27 februari 2022 11:16 > > *Aan:* jal...@googlegroups.com <jal...@googlegroups.com> > *Onderwerp:* Re: [jallib] PWM serial audio transmission > Sure, it is a proof-of-concept, not a product. I'm quite sure that 100, > maybe 500 bytes per second are possible, but the firmware needs to use a > diferent approach. > > This list is about libraries, and what you need is not easily or > efficiently realised as a library, it's a project. I have some ideas how > the coding and decoding could be done efficiently, but I presume I wouldn't > use any library for that at all. So it wouldn't even make a good example > for jallib ;-) > > Let me think a bit about designing the 8 pin encoder and decoder... > > Greets, > Kiste > > Am Sonntag, 27. Februar 2022, 10:43:06 MEZ hat hans < > hansvanve...@gmail.com> Folgendes geschrieben: > > > HI Kiste > Unfortunately that is way too slow. I need to send and read a set of at > least 9 bytes with an interval of no more than 3 seconds. > > regards > Hans > > Op zondag 27 februari 2022 om 08:45:40 UTC+1 schreef Kiste: > > Hi Hans, > > sorry for chiming in again with another warning: Rob called the set of > programs a "proof of concept", that is, it is not fit yet for your original > idea. The design of the receiving program is *guaranteed*not*to*work* at a > speed faster than 5 baud. I'd estimate, you could have serial data at 1 or > 2 baud. That is five to ten seconds for one byte. > > Good thing is: You don't have to worry about mp3 at such a speed. The > compression will not interfere with data sent that slow. > > Greets, > Kiste > > Am Samstag, 26. Februar 2022, 19:32:09 MEZ hat hans < > hansvanve...@gmail.com> Folgendes geschrieben: > > > Hi Kiste, Rob, > I did en compiled the programs. Now`the next days ( inspite of carnaval) > at work hans. Great > > Op zaterdag 26 februari 2022 om 17:22:57 UTC+1 schreef Kiste: > > Hi Hans, > > of course you can try, and it will work up to a certain speed. > > The 12F683 should work quite the same, but the oscillator speed setting is > different. So you would have to... > > - include the correct device file. > - comment out the line "pragma target IOSCFS F8MHZ ..." > - add a line "OSCCON_IRCF=0b111" > > Then, the input of Timer1 needs a voltage that goes higher than 2/3 of the > supply voltage. With audio equipment, you'll need a speaker output to reach > such levels. Use a resistor (about 1k to 10k) between (+) of the speaker > output and the chip's input pin. (-) of the speaker output must be > connected to GND of the PIC. Be careful *NOT* to power the amplifier and > the PIC from the same power supply device! The amplifier must be linear, a > class-D amp will not work. > > Greets, > Kiste > > > Am Samstag, 26. Februar 2022, 16:39:20 MEZ hat hans < > hansvanve...@gmail.com> Folgendes geschrieben: > > > Hi, > I can try it right? Otherwise I can also take another player that can > handle WAV. > Unfortunately I only have some 12F683 lying around, the 12f615 which Rob > used I do not know.. > regards > hans > > Op zaterdag 26 februari 2022 om 15:43:26 UTC+1 schreef Kiste: > > Oh... MP3 is terrible for digital data. If you can't use wav or another > lossless format, make sure to use the highest possible bitrate. Also, > that's another point not to record square waves, sine waves go through mp3 > far better. > > However, crosstalk is less of a problem then :-) > > Greets, > Kiste > > Am Samstag, 26. Februar 2022, 15:30:03 MEZ hat hans < > hansvanve...@gmail.com> Folgendes geschrieben: > > > Here I am again. I don't use a cassette deck. After I have finished the > audio/command files I just put them in MP3 on the well-known player. > Wow, now trying Rob's test, but it will take me some time. Anyway > fantastic again!! > regards > Hans > > Op zaterdag 26 februari 2022 om 12:02:49 UTC+1 schreef rob...@hotmail.com: > > Hi Hans, > > I tested my proof of concept. I also attached the programs I used. In the > given video you see the results. > > This is how it works and what the video shows: > > - The PIC on the left is the transmitter. It uses two inputs (via the > wires that I connect to VCC or GND). One input enables the transmitter > (orange wire), that is it starts sending a tone. With the second input > (green wire) I can switch between a low tone and a high tone. > - The PWM output of the transmitter (PIC on the left) is connected to > the timer/counter input of timer 1 of the receiver PIC (PIC on the right). > - The PIC on the right resets timer 1 then it starts a measurement for > 100 ms after which it stops the measurement. Then it checks the value of > timer 1 (which in fact counts the number of 'ticks' generated by the PWM > frequency on its input) within a certain range. If this range is within the > range of the low frequency, it will light up the yellow LED. If this range > is within the range of the high frequence it will light up the green LED. > If the counter value is outside these ranges (e.g. when there is no signal) > both LEDs will be off. > > I am not sure if this is what you are looking for. I do not know if it > also works if you would record the transmitted signal to a casette tape. > > Link to video: https://youtu.be/49DAT0BQuAc > <https://youtu.be/49DAT0BQuAc> > Data via Tone <https://youtu.be/49DAT0BQuAc> > For more information on JAL, visit: http://justanotherlanguage.org/ > youtu.be > > > Kind regards, > > Rob > ------------------------------ > *Van:* jal...@googlegroups.com <jal...@googlegroups.com> namens hans < > hansvanve...@gmail.com> > *Verzonden:* zaterdag 26 februari 2022 11:37 > > *Aan:* jallib <jal...@googlegroups.com> > *Onderwerp:* Re: [jallib] PWM serial audio transmission > Hi, I'm using a 16f1827 with 8 ADC inputs that transmits the position of > the elements with the help of a potentiometer via the uart and performs the > movements. The audio track is recorded first and plays normally. At the > same time, the control signals on the other track are sent via the > ???????????? included. Afterwards I combine both tracks into a stereo > signal, moving the playback position of the signals forward a bit to > compensate for my reaction slowness. When played afterwards, the normal > audio track goes to the amplifier and the other track to the ??????????? > which then performs the movements. > > Op zaterdag 26 februari 2022 om 09:34:33 UTC+1 schreef Kiste: > > Hi Hans, > > that's about what I thought. I'm quite sure it can be done with a pic, one > or two capacitors and three to five resistors (or two resistors and > potentiometers). I'm just not sure yet what the best way would be. > > To keep things simple, you would probably want to build a transmitter with > manual controls, and a receiver which controls the actual "show". That way, > you can connect both modules to the tape recorder, and really see what the > output does from tape, while recording the show. > > Greets, > Kiste > > Am Samstag, 26. Februar 2022, 09:04:29 MEZ hat hans < > hansvanve...@gmail.com> Folgendes geschrieben: > > > Hey, > I get the impression that my question has not come across properly. I will > use a regular stereo audio signal. One track contains music, speech and > other normal sounds. The other track I want to use to record commands with > which I can move servos, lights, etc. At first I thought to do this with > DTMF but the MT8880 has died. Then I fiddled with the TCM3105, an > old-fashioned modem chip, but that didn't work either. I then read > something about PW application and hence my question. > I've been messing around with PICs for a long time, but because I'm purely > mechanical by nature, I have to limit myself to what I called LEGO work. > You make the stones and I make grateful use of them. > regards > Hans > > Op zaterdag 26 februari 2022 om 07:41:46 UTC+1 schreef vasile: > > Rob, obviously will work. :) But it would be weird to use a bunch of > external analog electronics. > BTW, with a PIC you can do a class D amplifier... what perhaps Hans > wanted is not far away: sampling and then digitizing via PWM. > Other choices are possible as well. Success on any variant you'll choose! > > On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 7:58 PM Rob CJ <rob...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Kiste, > > The reason that I think it still might work is because - what I mentioned > previously - is that my Apple II I had built in the past also just worked > with tones to store data (at that time only games 🙂). > > I copied a pice of the casette interface of the Apple II schematic diagram > I found on the internet. What you see is that with an opamp the audio is > input signal is converted to a digital signal and the rest of the > processing is done in software. There is no special chip on the board to > process this data stream. > > Also the data out is just a direct output of a flip-flop with some > resistors to reduce the signal outpt but not even a low pass filter. > > The variations in cassette speed will result in a variation of the tone so > if I use a tone range to detect the right tone it might work. > > Kind regards, > > Rob > > > > ------------------------------ > *Van:* jal...@googlegroups.com <jal...@googlegroups.com> namens hans < > hansvanve...@gmail.com> > *Verzonden:* vrijdag 25 februari 2022 16:20 > *Aan:* jallib <jal...@googlegroups.com> > *Onderwerp:* Re: [jallib] PWM serial audio transmission > > > Hi Vasile, > > In my time a birth was still followed by a placenta, nowadays an iphone > comes after. > > A long time ago I was infected by Wouter, Jal is even more persistent than > corona, see http://www.voti.nl/setalk/n_index.html > > > > regards Hans > > Op vrijdag 25 februari 2022 om 13:34:14 UTC+1 schreef vasile: > > Hi Hans. Congratulations for your young mind! There aren't many people > programming at your age. > You are a great example! > > On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 10:16 AM hans <hansvanve...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Vasiele and others. > I was born before the last world war and I suspect most of you after it. > I hope it stays that way!! > Great, I can study today again. Thank you. > > Op vrijdag 25 februari 2022 om 06:58:52 UTC+1 schreef vasile: > > Kiste, not only the ZX81 but Sinclair Spectrum and most of it's clones did > the same. > The biggest problem was the tape speed variation (among the volume > variation which was corrected in romanian clones -and we had more than any, > I recall 5 different types). > > Hans, on the actual PIC18 series on which JAL works ( presuming you will > do with JAL) you might have some sampling speed issues. You need at least > 7.5us for an ADC sample and according to Nyquist theorem you need not 2x ( > which is pure theoretical) but at least 4x faster sampling than maximum > frequency you are recording. > After your AD is sampled, the PWM is not an issue, but you might > experience a small delay between real recorded speech and the PWM filtered > one. > If you plan to add voice for your puppet, then limiting to 4KHz may be a > good choice. > > best wishes, > hopefully not WW III, but in pace for playing nice... > > On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 10:38 PM 'Oliver Seitz' via jallib < > jal...@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > Hi Rob, > > connecting two PICs is not like an audio recording. Better connect the pic > to your soundcard to record and then playback, that way you'll get > something similar to a tape recorder. > > The difficulties when using audio equipment are (at least): > > - only alternating current is transmitted > - the volume is never exactly the same > - the frequency range is limited to like 100Hz-10kHz > - the line level voltage is less than 1V > > Reading should be possible by most PICs which have comparators. Only a > resistor is needed, then you can detect zero crossings. > > The Sinclair ZX81 used audio equipment as storage. A burst of three > oscillations coded a zero, five coded a one. The output was low-pass > filtered. You usually had to try loading a program several times, slightly > adjusting the volume, until you got lucky. > > Greets, > Kiste > > Am Donnerstag, 24. Februar 2022, 19:56:01 MEZ hat Rob CJ < > rob...@hotmail.com> Folgendes geschrieben: > > > Hi Hans, > > If I understand you right the only thing you want to do is to record a > signal or a sequence of signals on a casette player that can be used to > trigger something when the recording is played back right? > > If my initial suggestion would work - which may work since I have the idea > that my Apple II did more ore less the same thing - I could give it a try > to do a proof of concept. > > I may have a the problem that I do not have a casette recorder but I could > fake it by just connecting two PICs to see if that works. The final test > could then be done by you. > > Which PIC type are you using? > > Kind regards, > > Rob > > > > ------------------------------ > *Van:* jal...@googlegroups.com <jal...@googlegroups.com> namens hans < > hansvanve...@gmail.com> > *Verzonden:* donderdag 24 februari 2022 17:07 > *Aan:* jallib <jal...@googlegroups.com> > *Onderwerp:* Re: [jallib] PWM serial audio transmission > > Another piece of text: > So far I've done everything with MIDI. I used one midi channel for the > actions with a general command type. Then 2 data, one for the device nr > (16) and one for the command. (0-128) > This has worked well for years, but it does require a complete MIDI sound > package. > > Op donderdag 24 februari 2022 om 16:55:46 UTC+1 schreef hans: > > Hey , > I have tried a circuit with an MT8880 but the ICI has failed. I did hear > the 16 tones, but when I wanted to receive them, the chip gave up the ghost. > In theory I understand your suggestions well, but developing something > like this is not easy for me. I'm just a LEGO builder. > regards > Hans > > Op woensdag 23 februari 2022 om 19:30:37 UTC+1 schreef rob...@hotmail.com: > > Hi Hans, Kiste, > > You can still by DTMF decoders and I assume also DTMF encoders. Just look > at for example Aliexpress and type DTMF. > > But another suggestion. Many, many years ago I had built an Apple II and > I used cassette tapes to store and load games which was using tones > generated by the Apple II itself using two tones, one for high, one for low > and one as a lead-in tone (not sure in the lead-in tone was another tone) > to synchronze the start of the recorded program. You would not need this > lead-in tone in your case > > So I think it may not be that complex: > -) For recording on casette, generate this dual tone by the PIC via PWM > or maybe it is also sufficient to generate one tone in case of a 1 and no > tone in case of a 0 but I think this will be less reliable. > -) For playback, measure the length of the recorded PWM tone. If is is > within a certain range you accept it as a one and in case of two tones the > lower tone could be zero and the higher tone is one. > > As long as the tone frequency is not too high, I think this could work. > > A more advanced solution would be to use a phase locked loop (PLL) but I > am not sure if it will work. The PLL locks to the input signal so the > voltage that controls the oscillator goes up and down to follow (lock on > to) the input signal and this oscillator voltage signal could then be used > by a comparator of the PIC to detect a high or low tone. You can also use > the oscillator of the IC to generate the two tones by controlling the > oscillator voltage by the PIC. A typical IC for that is the HEF4046. I have > used this IC many many years ago too. This solution may be bit over the top > since you only want a kind of trigger signal > > But maybe the first solution is more doable. Just give it a try. > > Kind regards, > > Rob > > ------------------------------ > *Van:* 'Oliver Seitz' via jallib <jal...@googlegroups.com> > *Verzonden:* woensdag 23 februari 2022 09:58 > *Aan:* jal...@googlegroups.com <jal...@googlegroups.com> > *Onderwerp:* Re: [jallib] PWM serial audio transmission > > Hi Hans, > > 20 years ago I would have suggested using DTMF, but the decoder chips are > rare these days... > > PIC controllers include various peripherals which can be used to encode > and decode DC-free signals (which, apart from the frequency below, say, > 10kHz, is the requirement to be recorded as audio). On/off keying or > frequency shift keying are the easiest, I think. Which chips are you going > to use? > > Greets, > Kiste > > Am Mittwoch, 23. Februar 2022, 09:15:43 MEZ hat hans < > hansvanve...@gmail.com> Folgendes geschrieben: > > > Hello everyone, > I have been trying for a long time to place a serial signal on one track > of an audio recording which I can read afterwards. To make all kinds of > things happen at the same time as the audio is played. I have now tried to > do this with the old modem system ( TCM3105) but it failed hopelessly. I > read that there are also systems to do this using PWM. Does anyone have an > idea? > regards > Hans > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "jallib" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to jallib+un...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jallib/773ca37b-9bed-4349-a8eb-32a5d8973df6n%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jallib/773ca37b-9bed-4349-a8eb-32a5d8973df6n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "jallib" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to jallib+un...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jallib/201142693.752814.1645606718467%40mail.yahoo.com > 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