Is it right to compare a "Programming Language" with a scripting language in those terms ?
On 17/11/2007, Ala'a Ibrahim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Well, I'm not a Java fan myself, I've always been C/C++ guy, till I started > working with PHP, but for me Programming Languages are tools that you use to > accomplish things, and that's the way I think we should look at them, before > starting the comparison. > About performance, yes it's expected to have a lower performance, but it > gained the speed the hardware is offering, but it feels that way cause it's > slower than everything else. well try running OpenOffice on a PII with a > 32M/ RAM machine and you'll see there is a difference :P. > About OO, well OO is a programming style, the language only offers you tools > that would make it easier to implement, I've written a lot of OO > applications using C, and believe me, whatever the programing language is > fully OO, I can assure you that you can write your applications in a > Top/Down code style. > > Also, strongly typed languages are not just about defining a space in the > memory, and one of the problems I had with PHP is that it doesn't have the > double type, I needed that while writing a package that calculates the > praying times in a day, and the precision I needed for it, well it had an > error of minutes, which wasn't a good result, so I needed to write it in C, > and call it from PHP to get a better result. and sometimes you just need to > specify the actual type of a certain variable, in a big application, a > variable tossed around the whole application his type might change in the > middle of something that has a bug, causing a logical error in the end. I > prefer to see that as a warning, or an error. > > Also code generators are not as bad as people talk about them, they are very > useful for all types of languages, I have bash and vim scripts all over my > machine that it's job is to generate certain code for me that I don't think > that I need to waste my time writing, it saves me a lot of time, also most > of the frameworks (including rails) have some certain feature that would > generate part of the code for you. If I had a better knowledge with gtk I > would write a wizard to generate most of the stuff for me, like imagine > every time I need to write a class, I would write the basic class structure > that I use for most of the classes I write. also I hope I can write a class > generator for inherited classes, to at least write the function prototype > for all the abstract functions in its parent. using my written generators, I > managed to cut down about 25% of the time I need to write a certain > application, we really waste a lot of time writing stupid stuff that we > don't even think about. > > it's a very nice quote, but when it comes to the point that Java runs on all > platforms, well this is really not true, have you ever tried Java with a > 64bit OS (which is not Mac of course), it's a real pain in the A**. also I > guess there is no Programming language that runs on all platforms, it should > say it's easy to be ported to all platforms, and the best thing to do to > achieve that, is to publish your source code, and use only open source > libraries in it ( i.e. comply to the gnu standards), that way, someone might > figure out a way to run it on his system, and whatever Suns CEO says, Java > is still not open source which makes porting harder. > > If you want to see on it's best performance, try it on Mac OSX, as it's > built into the core of the OS, (an upgrade of the JVM used to require a > reboot, I don't know how it is now, I haven't used a Mac in a very long > time). > > but still a lot of problems arise in scripted languages, like the system > exceptions, it's different from a language to another, but for example, PHP > (as when it was built it wasn't written to be a language that supports OO) > till the moment, a lot of errors can happen and you have no way of handling > them in your application, I know it's uncommon, but for me, I had to deal > with a lot of Segmentation Faults with it, also the common problem, a Fatal > Error for reaching the maximum memory limit, cannot be handled via PHP in a > productive way. > > This is what is on my mind right now, I have to go back to working :P > > On 11/16/07, Al-Faisal El-Dajani < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hey Guys, > > > > I just had a _very_ heated debate with a friend of mine about the merits > of using Java, and just wanted your input on the matter. I was a Java fan up > until I left university and met the real world, and there, the whole > paradigm of predefined variables just crumpled on itself. > > > > I just can't stop thinking that in the 12 years that Java has existed (and > hardware has evolved 8x, according to moore's law), Java applications have > not gained one ounce of speed that the hardware should be giving. I mean, > they seem to be some kind of performance blackholes. Seriously, whenever I > use any Java application (Azureus, OpenOffice, Eclipse), I actually feel > physical pain. > > > > And ever since I tried out PHP and Ruby, I just completely lost faith in > ALL strongly typed languages. I mean, come on, do I really need to specify > that this variable is a double? It's some space in memory that I use to > whatever ends I see fit. If you want to protect me as a developer from using > my variables in the way I want, then perhaps the language should be > developed using wizards and auto code generators like a certain set of other > languages does. > > > > The Java proponents, however, keep saying "well, it works on all > platforms". That is true, but I'll take online applications over Java anyday > of the week. I actually _prefer_ network latency to Java's performance, at > least the PC would be free to do a sophisticated thing as "Multitasking". > And sometimes I retort with this qoute which usually shuts them up :). > > > > Another point that Java proponents use (or at least try to), is the claim > that Java is an OO language as opposed to PHP (and they seem to prefer JSP > over PHP, go figure...). Of course I would (politely) point to them that > PHP5 is OO, and more importantly that Java is not fully OO. No offense, but > ever after using Ruby, I don't view Java to be the pinnacle of OO (as it > shouldn't be). > > > > Now don't get me wrong, this extends to languages far beyond Java, but the > question I have is: Am I being overly critical of Java? Is there any merit > to my points? or theirs? What's your input? > > > > -- > > Al-Faisal El-Dajani > > Phone: +962-7-79 73 70 50 > > P.O Box: 140056 > > 11814 Amman, Jordan > > > > > > > > -- > Ala'a A. Ibrahim > http://guru.alaa-ibrahim.com/ > > > > -- \/ushi - xushi.co.uk /\ - socialprotest.com --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Jolug" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Jolug?hl=en-GB -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
