Otherwise, I also tested on Firefox and Safari on OS X where there are
(I think) more accurate timers.

-- dz



On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 12:01 PM, David Zhou <[email protected]> wrote:
> I booted into two dedicated Windows partitions that have IE6 and IE7
> installed respectively.  This was on a Core 2 Duo 2.4, so YMMV.
>
> -- dz
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Andrea Giammarchi
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Those times are averages and I performed the test 5 times for each browser.
>>
>> I would like to know if you used IE tester ( my choice ) rather than
>> Multiple IE
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 4:17 PM, David Zhou <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>> I did, and it doesn't quite match up to your times -- which could be
>>> due to machine differences or any number of reasons.  Pure DOM was
>>> still significantly faster, but not as much as the numbers shown in
>>> your case.
>>>
>>> This is why I asked for more details about the tests you ran.
>>>
>>> -- dz
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 10:41 AM, Andrea Giammarchi
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> > if you want to try the test you can visit this page:
>>> > http://bill.dojotoolkit.org/taskspeed/
>>> >
>>> > or create a local TaskSpeed implementation
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 3:19 PM, David Zhou <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> How many times did you run your tests? Are these averages?
>>> >>
>>> >> Also, did you try the tests on a non-Windows XP or Vista machine to
>>> >> get more accurate results? (At least for Firefox and Opera).
>>> >>
>>> >> I don't doubt that pure DOM manipulation is going to be faster, but
>>> >> it's certainly surprising to see how much faster it is than any
>>> >> library.
>>> >>
>>> >> -- dz
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 10:03 AM, Gilles <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I understand better your point, but I think to an extend people use
>>> >> > libraries for left side of the equation like you said, which is
>>> >> > probably why library developers seems to concentrate more on that.
>>> >> > Also I think JQuery is on the right track as the latest releases were
>>> >> > about improving performance rather than adding some other cool stuff
>>> >> > to it. Frankly I think it got enough cool stuff already, but I am
>>> >> > looking forward to the require() addition tho.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > The thing is tho, if a library doesn't support the cool stuff it will
>>> >> > be seen as not up to date with the competition and it will lose some
>>> >> > of its popularity. And most people who use those libraries are not
>>> >> > always that worried about the performance side of things, often it is
>>> >> > more developer that tend to worry about that and frankly by my work
>>> >> > experience I can say even in professional environment there isn't
>>> >> > enough of them that actually care. You still have tonnes of companies
>>> >> > doing web application that will not behave well outside IE, no
>>> >> > validation, no multibrowser support, no javascript off support
>>> >> > etc....
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Personally I like to have my little benchmark and try to improve
>>> >> > speed
>>> >> > and all (mostly in php still, in javascript I still got a lot to
>>> >> > learn, too often wrong :p)
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Hopefully things will get better in the future now that IE8 is out
>>> >> > (also the number of current IE6 users still alarming), it's still not
>>> >> > perfect of course, but the few things I tried on it so far behave
>>> >> > more
>>> >> > like they are suppose to.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Wouldn't be nice when you can just code thing the way they should and
>>> >> > they would work everywhere. Imagine the footprint of everything
>>> >> > without all the lines for IE and other weird borsers lol
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On Apr 2, 12:32 pm, Andrea Giammarchi <[email protected]>
>>> >> > wrote:
>>> >> >> performances improvements and 44 seconds rather than 3 do not make
>>> >> >> sense,
>>> >> >> imho.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> What I am saying is that we, as libraries developers, just put
>>> >> >> layers
>>> >> >> to
>>> >> >> make IE behaves like every other cool browser.
>>> >> >> This layer at the same time is slowing down IE speed, which has
>>> >> >> already
>>> >> >> the
>>> >> >> worse JS engine ever, compared to others.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> So, the equation is simple: cool stuff : IE = performances : bad
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> I am sure a lot of code is focused just on the left part of the
>>> >> >> equation
>>> >> >> while should be nice, in my opinion, to consider more the right side
>>> >> >> when it
>>> >> >> is possible.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Better?
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 12:20 PM, Gilles <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> > Déjá vus are actually well explained in the latest New Scientist,
>>> >> >> > very
>>> >> >> > cool stuff :)
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> > I think you might want to highlight JQuery 1.3.2 and DOM instead
>>> >> >> > of
>>> >> >> > JQuery 1.2.6 tho as the performanace improved dramatically since
>>> >> >> > then.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> > But I just don't get what you are saying by saying that libraries
>>> >> >> > (not
>>> >> >> > talking about JQuery only, cos I am only a user) are not optimized
>>> >> >> > for
>>> >> >> > IE. Any libraries will have a huge amount of lines that are
>>> >> >> > dedicated
>>> >> >> > to IE, cos IE just can't use standards properly. Unless of course
>>> >> >> > as
>>> >> >> > usual I don't get it cos the translation doesn't go well lol
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> > If it wasn't for IE the number of check in libraries would be
>>> >> >> > smaller
>>> >> >> > and libraries would probably be faster lol
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> > On Apr 2, 11:05 am, Andrea Giammarchi
>>> >> >> > <[email protected]>
>>> >> >> > wrote:
>>> >> >> > > dejavou ... I am not blaming any library and obviously it is not
>>> >> >> > > possible
>>> >> >> > to
>>> >> >> > > match manual tasks speed but Internet Explorer is not optimized
>>> >> >> > > at
>>> >> >> > > all,
>>> >> >> > > that's the point.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> > > That TaskSpeed is performing truly common operation like remove,
>>> >> >> > > append,
>>> >> >> > > prepend, before, after, creation, etc ... and results against
>>> >> >> > > other
>>> >> >> > > libraries ( except for Prototype ) are clear in my blog post:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > > >http://webreflection.blogspot.com/2009/04/taskspeed-dom-vs-libraries....
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> > > Here a summary of Internet Explorer results:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> > > Internet Explorer 6
>>> >> >> > > ------------------------
>>> >> >> > > library       | ms
>>> >> >> > > ------------------------
>>> >> >> > > DOM             *3966*
>>> >> >> > > Dojo 1.2.3      22750
>>> >> >> > > plugd-a (Dojo)  24189
>>> >> >> > > Dojo 1.3.0      24249
>>> >> >> > > jQuery 1.3.2    44314
>>> >> >> > > MooTools 1.2.1  69346
>>> >> >> > > jQuery 1.2.6    *104407*
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> > > Internet Explorer 7
>>> >> >> > > ------------------------
>>> >> >> > > library       | ms
>>> >> >> > > ------------------------
>>> >> >> > > DOM             *612*
>>> >> >> > > Dojo 1.2.3      3641
>>> >> >> > > plugd-a (Dojo)  3748
>>> >> >> > > Dojo 1.3.0      3861
>>> >> >> > > jQuery 1.3.2    5031
>>> >> >> > > MooTools 1.2.1  7658
>>> >> >> > > jQuery 1.2.6    *10468*
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> > > Internet Explorer 8
>>> >> >> > > ------------------------
>>> >> >> > > library       | ms
>>> >> >> > > ------------------------
>>> >> >> > > DOM             *499*
>>> >> >> > > Dojo 1.3.0      2327
>>> >> >> > > plugd-a (Dojo)  2455
>>> >> >> > > Dojo 1.2.3      2922
>>> >> >> > > jQuery 1.3.2    3170
>>> >> >> > > MooTools 1.2.1  5876
>>> >> >> > > jQuery 1.2.6    *7049*
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> > > On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Gilles <[email protected]>
>>> >> >> > > wrote:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> > > > It would be good to see DOM speed results compare to other
>>> >> >> > > > libraries
>>> >> >> > > > and see which libraries comes the closest to it. But I would
>>> >> >> > > > never
>>> >> >> > > > expect any library to match it on all tests. But then again
>>> >> >> > > > that
>>> >> >> > > > TaskSpeed test only take into consideration few basics tests
>>> >> >> > > > and
>>> >> >> > > > not
>>> >> >> > > > the overall performance of akll the functionalities within a
>>> >> >> > > > library.
>>> >> > >
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> >>
>>
>

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